Unclear on the Concept: You Cannot Renounce Cis Privilege
So, V at Resisterance decided to tell us how Debi was a bad person back when we didn’t get along anyway, and responded to the discussion in that post. Trinity continued her responses (with more discussion in the comments).
I’m trying to cut down on directly addressing individuals for what they’re saying and simply address the societal systems they exploit when they say such things, but it’s clear that V really doesn’t understand what cissexual privilege is, and the way she trivializes being trans is so deeply offensive that I felt it necessary to respond to her hateful words against my life.
My problem with V isn’t that she points out that violence is done to women. I agree with her, and I think that we should be shouting from the rooftops that this violence is constantly happening. We should grab society and shake it until it finally reacts and agrees, “Yes, this should stop.”
My problem is that she uses this to establish a hierarchy of oppressions:
“How many more trans women must die violent, needless deaths while we wait for those who should be our natural allies – non-trans women – to join us in speaking out and taking a stand against it? How long are we expected to wait?”
I think that its quite sick to say something like that among feminists who have spent lifetimes beaten and raped by male violence. It shows a total lack of empathy or understanding of what women go through in terms of male violence.
And from Shut Up, Sit Down, linked below:
femicide – its cis privilege!
1 in 3 raped in her lifetime – cis privilege!
average of 2 women murdered a week in the uk by current or past ‘partners’ – cis privilege!
less than 6% chance of seeing your rapist found guilty, even if you by some miracle get him arrested and in court in the first place – cis privilege!
birth rape – cis privilege!
a childhood of being forced into femininity – cis privilege!
having the nerve to resist it – cis privilege!
gee im so glad i have all this cis privilege.
Because to V, apparently, recognition of the brutal, misogynist and transphobic violence directed at trans women somehow takes away from the misogynist violence directed at both cis and trans women. V clearly doesn’t believe that trans women are included in the latter, but she doesn’t know what she’s talking about.
In fact, V says that any oppression she experiences means she doesn’t count as cis. Heck, she claims she can actually renounce it by “resisting femininity,” (with apologies to Anji for multiple pingbacks to this one post) as if cis privilege is all about your gender presentation:
lisa – its been pointed out to you before that many radical feminists do in fact make a real effort to resist femininity for political reasons. i wonder how come you can define us all as ‘cis’ when you dont know that that is true. how can we be cis simply because we are not trans? how come you dont recognise that there are in fact other ways to resist or not conform to gender rules that do not come under trans? why this need to force people into boxes that only you are allowed to label?
At it’s most basic, cissexual privilege is having a body that society expects you to have – if you present as a woman, your body is female. If you present as a man, your body is male. There’s no confusion, no change that someone will decide that you’re really the other sex because your genitals don’t meet their satisfaction, that no one will murder you. V’s not renouncing that. I’ll admit that she’s complicating the idea of her own cisgender privilege, but the idea of “cisgender” is more fluid, with softer boundaries and related to more liminal categories that neither qualify as cisgender nor transgender, and I will never label anyone cisgender because to do so implies that I know anything about how they relate to their gender.
But I know this – resisting femininity doesn’t give up cissexual privilege. You’re not going to be refused life-saving medical care because you have breasts and a penis, or because you’re a man with a vagina. No one will justify killing you by calling you “it” and saying that you were really a man who tricked him into thinking you were a woman (whether or not the story is true). No one will let someone off with voluntary manslaughter for using that story to excuse killing you.
And it’s not just murder. Trans women are violently attacked and raped at least as cis women are just for being women, but this is compounded with being trans. As I point out above, trans women are seen as safer targets. Further, the police are not friends. Until recently, just being a trans woman of color in Washington DC (and not just Washington DC) was considered “probable cause” to suspect that woman of being a sex worker. That is profiling based on the intersection of race, gender, and trans status.
So with that out of the way, V says this:
In answer to your question about my cis-ness. I live with a male partner, I have two children. I’m very much female, but I dont wear skirts, makeup, heeled shoes, all that jazz. I do dye my hair pink sometimes, does that qualify as cis privilege? Im just so lucky to be born female and low class! gasp! Where may I spend this cis-currency?
I laugh at your fucking clueless stuff about cis privilege because it’s so bloody academic. You want a bio? Nows as good a time as any.
…
Cis privilege? Whatever. To me you just look like another bunch of rich girls who never had anything that urgent to live through, who had the luxury of identity problems while people like me were trying to stay alive in whatever way we could. Sob story? Whatever. Thats where I come from, its just the way it was, I can keep it hidden but I cant change it. I was never comfortable as me, either, but I didnt have luxury time to sit around whining about it, there were bigger more immediate issues to deal with.
You have your identity crisis and your anxieties, fine. I get that and I wish it wasnt so bad for you. But you arent the only ones, and frankly, id have begged to have such problems. So stop fucking shaking your labels around like they mean anything more than they do, we dont live in Disneyworld where dreams are all that matters. Youre stuck on creating labels for dreams that havent even been imagined properly yet, while Im stuck trying to deal with a few decades immersed in the dirt and violence of the most neglected and hated parts of a rich and judgmental society. Theres no reason we cant fumble on along next to each other without even acknowledging each other, because we dont share the same existence at all.
I trimmed out her life story. If you want to read it, the link’s at the beginning of this post.
But just for my own experiences: I grew up in an abusive working class household. I was constantly bullied and beaten in school for being too feminine, I was in an abusive relationship for five years. I am not a rich girl indulging in the luxury of “identity problems” (whatever that’s supposed to mean – I’ve never had trouble with my identity). Being trans was an immediate issue, just as being abused as a child, just as surviving domestic violence, just as making enough money to eat and pay rent. It is so self-indulgent and ignorant to assume that because you do not understand trans women that you think we’re all wealthy gender dilettantes.
V, nothing – not one thing – you mention above has anything to do with your cissexual privilege. It’s like white privilege – you cannot simply decide you’re not white one day and poof, it’s gone. No matter what you do, it’s still there. Resist it, try to pretend it doesn’t exist, try to throw up smoke screens about all of the intersections that affect your life – you’re still cissexual. You’re still a woman with a female body. Unless you decide to transition, this is how you’ll remain.
Your male partner? Trans women can have male partners. I’ve had male partners. Your kids? Trans women can have kids (although not by pregnancy – there’s a bit of privilege for you, the privilege of biological motherhood). Dye your hair pink? I’ve dyed my hair pink. You were born lower class? I was born lower class. Academic? Radical feminism is bloody academic. Cis privilege isn’t academic. It’s what you’re born with and live with, and experience every day as easily as you breathe.
Trans and cis are labels, yes, but so are woman and feminist and lower class and white and black. But labels aren’t without meaning. They’re inscribed with meaning. If labels had no meaning there’d never be a point to using them. My labels – trans and cis – that I use to differentiate between women like me and women like you – are valuable and useful labels. My labels are not based on dreams but my day to day lived realities. That you trivialize being “trans” as “living in Disneyworld” and as “dreams that havent even been imagined properly yet” and insist that somehow you are “stuck trying to deal with a few decades immersed in the dirt and violence of the most neglected and hated parts of a rich and judgmental society” and I have rainbows and skittles? That you think “we dont share the same existence at all?”
That you can trivialize my life so thoroughly that you can say without an ounce of irony or self-reflection, “id have begged to have such problems?”
You wish you could experience the luxury of being trans? You wish you could have your marriage voided based on your chromosomes? You wish you could be denied custody of your children because your birth sex does not match your current sex? You wish that you could be placed in the wrong prison for your sex because the courts and police see you as the wrong sex? You wish that you could lose your job, your family, your friends, and end up doing survival sex work? You wish that your right to use the proper restroom be contested with lies, slander, and libel? You wish that the civil rights movement that supposedly works for your rights constantly uses you as a token to buy more rights for the rest of the movement?
You wish for this?
If I could, I’d give it to you. Just for a week, a month, a year.
But, seriously, what you wrote about? What’s happened to you? Many (not all) of those things have happened to me, and I’ve had to deal with some stuff you haven’t. Our lives are not exactly alike, but we have a lot more in common than you think, and more than you’d expect comes from both of us being women. I empathize with many of your experiences, because I’ve lived them. In addition to being trans.
Now please go read some Audre Lorde.
Edited to correct my mislabeling of V’s partner.
How doesyour title relate this to the common accusation that trans women have male privilege? I have a notion of what I think privilege is (I don’t think it’s at all clear or has been quantified exactly), but I’m not sure trying to describe it here would help.
Anyway, V’s idea is easily debunked by thinking about brown cis women, or poor cis women: I’m not quite sure that V would think about their oppression and suffering as “quite sick”.
It’s also amusing to hear this train of thought that’s been bandied about “oh, I don’t have cis privilege because I have short hair” and the like.
z
17 Sep 08 at 12:15 am
Trans women don’t have male privilege. Trans women have “passing as male privilege” pre-transition, as well as potentially two different kinds of “passing as cissexual privilege” pre- and post-transition. This has some interesting comparisons that I don’t want to make myself due to not being a woman of color.
Nearly all of my links about what trans women deal with are about trans women of color. I also believe that our special snowflake here is white.
Also, I want to add that V doesn’t know she has cis privilege because she’s unable to see it, just like men and male privilege.
Lisa Harney
17 Sep 08 at 12:24 am
That’s an interesting perspective, I haven’t heard it before. It makes a lot of sense.
z
17 Sep 08 at 12:36 am
It’s a new perspective. Basically, the idea that trans women have male privilege just like men is based on the idea that the cis experience is the true, valid experience and the trans experience is not. So the assumption is that trans women grow up exactly the same way as cis men.
In other words, it’s a trans misogynistic perspective used to define our lives for us, and deny us the voice to describe our lives.
Lisa Harney
17 Sep 08 at 12:39 am
Even if one were to hold the position that a trans person has male privilege, it could only really make any sense if one were talking about late transitioners: then one would have to go back and reexamine what privilege actually meant when some members of a group experience privilege and other members of that group didn’t.
It still leads on to pondering about what exactly is privilege? I think most people seem to have a nebulous idea of it, can pin down specific examples of it, but what actually is it? I had thought of it as an exercise of power by one group over another, but it’s more than that, it’s thoughts as well as deeds, ideas as well as ignorance. It’s all probably out-of-scope for discussion, and I don’t want to derail the discussion. Maybe it’s just my mathematician brain yearning to find a general definition of it all :)
z
17 Sep 08 at 12:58 am
And I was just having a rant to myself (yes, I’m weird) about hetero-privilege, inspired by squee-riffic pics of George Takei’s recent wedding. The whole bloody point about privilege (for the purposes of this argument and my point of view, at least) is that it’s not something you’re confronted with in day-to-day life. So with regard to my het-privilege, marrying my partner of choice has *never been an issue*. Talking about my partner and having my audience assume partner=male has *never been an issue*. Until I had this *startling* revelation that not everyone gets these things, and eventually (bless the blogosphere) figured out the word for these things was “privilege”. The whole point is it’s things I get on a platter for inherent and uncontrollable characteristics.
I’m not sure how any of that equates to “low rape conviction rates = cis privilege”, but maybe we’re taking a trip to “breathing is transphobic” land again.
QoT
17 Sep 08 at 1:02 am
Oh, you can talk about it here. I will be doing a post on passing privilege in the next day or two, but right now, this is the discussion, and I think it’s totally pertinent because my post is entirely about privilege.
QoT,
Yes, the whole point of privilege is that while you benefit at the expense of other people, you have the luxury of not noticing.
I forgot to mention that V’s not at fault for benefiting from cis privilege. Maybe I was just too pissed at her complete trivialization of what it means to be trans.
And yes, I think we are in “breathing is transphobic” land.
Oh – “breathing is transphobic” was taken down. Eating blueberries, however, remains transphobic.
Lisa Harney
17 Sep 08 at 1:07 am
The question of money and wealth is interesting compared to that model of something “never being an issue” . I would imagine most of us are confronted with managing what money we have on a day-to-day basis (speaking personally, I certainly do). But I certainly have more money than a large amount of people. Only the very wealthiest would probably not worry so much about their day-to-day expenses.
Do we conceptualize privilege on a sliding scale, or is it always an absolute measure against groups?
z
17 Sep 08 at 1:21 am
I think that privilege tends to be amorphous, which is why it’s hard to nail down absolutely, but you can recognize it when it’s used against you.
And, of course, intersections affect privilege, so a white cis man and a black cis man both have different experiences with male privilege, because the white man’s privilege is tied up in his white privilege which oppresses people of color, and the black man’s privilege is tied up in the oppression directed at him for his race.
Lisa Harney
17 Sep 08 at 1:34 am
But! but… but… but…
she says she’s married…
with kids…
Academic!
*brain fail*
Oliver FP
17 Sep 08 at 4:01 am
“Trans women don’t have male privilege. Trans women have “passing as male privilege” pre-transition, as well as potentially two different kinds of “passing as cissexual privilege” pre- and post-transition.”
I must say I have a problem with that.
I agree that post-transition there is a difference between “passing as cissexual privilege” and “cissexual privilege” because the former is much more fragile (there is always the threat that you will be outed) but when it is pre-transition saying that it is only “passing as male/cis” bothers me because it is interpreting how a person is seen (and privileged) according to their future transition.
To take a stupid example, if in 5 years V transitions, does that mean that today she wasn’t privileged for being cis but only for “passing as cis” ?
I don’t think so, because how I see privilege (or oppression) is that it concerns people not for what they “really” are, but how they are seen by the society. And well, if someones says she’s not cis, I won’t say the contrary, even if she does have high heels and puts lipstick ; but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have cis privilege, since it is the way she will be treated.
Now I understand that pre-transition trans people usually have a very different experience of cis/male privilege because it is not internalised in the same way, but I think it is a different question.
Elly
17 Sep 08 at 4:50 am
Except that the passing male/cis privilege pre-transition is conditional upon not transitioning (and not just not transitioning). Just like gay men and lesbian women can pass as heterosexual and even be in heterosexual relationships, but they lose that privilege after coming out and entering same-sex relationships (and, of course, for many people, being gay or lesbian can be visible).
The point of passing-as privilege is that society does see you as you appear to be, so I really don’t get why you think that’s a contradiction, unless you think there’s no pre-transition circumstance under which anyone might see past that and punish you for it. If that’s the case, my childhood would like to have a lot of words with you.
Lisa Harney
17 Sep 08 at 5:14 am
And if V transitions in five years, then clearly she fooled me with her passing privilege.
Lisa Harney
17 Sep 08 at 5:32 am
“Except that the passing male/cis privilege pre-transition is conditional upon not transitioning”
Well, yes, once (if) you transition you indeed lose those privileges (even if I don’ t think it’s instantaneous either, and you probably can keep some benefits under certain circomstances, but well)
“unless you think there’s no pre-transition circumstance under which anyone might see past that and punish you for it. If that’s the case, my childhood would like to have a lot of words with you.”
Well maybe the problem is with the term “transition”, because I don’t think the question is only that but also whether you are potentially “visible” or not, which is a bit different. I think that personally during >20 years I had some “male” and “cis” privileges which were not just “passing as cis/male” because no one (not even me) could “suspect” me of wanting to transition. Now for people who have been expressing a visible wll/need to be in the “other gender” since they were very young, that is obviously very different.
Elly
17 Sep 08 at 5:59 am
-applause-
belledame222
17 Sep 08 at 11:49 am
per the first few comments: well, and at its most simplistic, (which it appears this is, based on the posts you’re responding to), what it’s really based on is the idea that trans women are “opting out of being male,” in the way that you talked about white people denying their privilege by “opting out of being white.” which–no. people aren’t trans as some sort of conscious decision to opt out of “male guilt” and the rightful wrath they have coming toward them as males. -it doesn’t work like that- (see OP).
but I think, you know, it’s both the cis priv as well as the radfem theory -and- the personal history that insists that -there’s no other possible reason anyone would want/need to transition.” that anyone would -voluntarily- become/start presenting as a woman, to start with, much less the idea that how one feels in one’s body might be separate at some level from all outside “societal” expectations of how people in each body are supposed to -act.- it’s just, “hey, I don’t feel good, I don’t think changing my gender or sex would fix everything, what makes -you- so special? why should I spare any empathy for -you-? besides, male priv, (and projected class priv, here) yadda, yadda, lather rinse repeat”
belledame222
17 Sep 08 at 11:56 am
The point of passing privilege isn’t necessarily that it’s easily torn away, it’s that people are taking you for someone you appear to be, rather than for all facets of your identity.
And again, it’s conditional on you not transitioning. As long as you’re willing to hold the line and not alter your body or wear the clothes or change your name, people are less likely to figure out there’s anything different.
But if you want to define your experiences as uncomplicated male privilege, that’s your call – I’m not here to tell you how to relate to your own life. I’m learning that many trans women don’t see it that way, and are tired of that excuse being used to silence us and appropriate our right to describe our own lives. And, yes, it’s used to frame the discussion on other people’s terms, to assert that “Yes, trans women are really male.”
The assertion that trans women experience male privilege the same as cis men simply privileges cis experiences over trans experiences as well as outright denies the validity of trans experiences by insisting that the experience of being male or seen as male is the same for cis men and trans women, and I don’t believe that is at all the case, nor do I think it’s necessary to make a distinction between early and late transitioners. People can hold onto passing privilege for decades.
Lisa Harney
17 Sep 08 at 12:01 pm
“But if you want to define your experiences as uncomplicated male privilege”
I don’t say it’s uncomplicated. Yes it’s complicated, but it’s also complicated for, eg., effeminate gay people (fags?) and I think they still have male privilege despite that. Now yes, I think I benefited male privilege, even if i only realised it when I benefited it no more (or at least far less).
“And, yes, it’s used to frame the discussion on other people’s terms, to assert that “Yes, trans women are really male.””
True, but so what ? I can’t just pretend to agree with something because some bigots don’t. _o_
“The assertion that trans women experience male privilege the same as cis men simply privileges cis experiences over trans experiences as well as outright denies the validity of trans experiences by insisting that the experience of being male or seen as male is the same for cis men and trans women”
Well, ok, I understand that trans people have the feeling of having been “trans” since very young.
But the problem I have with all of this is that it implies that before transitionning, trans’ people were already trans’ and completely different from cis people. And… I don’t know. I don’t fit. I think I _was_ cis some years ago (but on the other hand I’m not even sure anymore to be trans’ now). I think people who are cis now can be trans, well, not tomorrow, but in some years, because (some) people change.
I’m sorry if it is confused, but I am :/
Elly Rouge
17 Sep 08 at 1:34 pm
@ Elly,
I highly suggest you read my essay that Lisa links to; it addresses all the points you’re raising, in detail.
One thing that’s relevant that I think Lisa means to be saying but perhaps isn’t clear is that if you know, somewhere, that you’re not cis, that you “are” or “want to be” or “should be” a gender that’s not sanctioned (or you aren’t/want not to be/should not be your assigned gender), there’s a lot of guilt, shame, and denial that goes into that. I’m quite sure that some troubles that I have being assertive and believing that I can do things to be happy/have a right to be happy are a direct result of growing up trans.
There’s also the fact that not all of us completely pass as cissexual pre-transition, and there are times I didn’t pass as cisgender or was treated in ways boys/men aren’t normally treated.
There’s more, but it’s articulated in the essay.
Cedar
17 Sep 08 at 2:34 pm
@Lisa–
Perhaps you should mention to her that trans women suffered the same number of attacks in 2007 as all other queer women combined did in 2006. And, um, there are a bit fewer of us.
(perhaps I should ask her if she’s been physically assaulted twice in the past year)
So, yes, dear, that *is* cis privilege. *eyeroll*
Cedar
17 Sep 08 at 2:37 pm
@Elly:
I wouldn’t be surprised if a few of these folks came out later, and in fact I think their hate could easily be a product of lacking a cis identity and internalizing that hatred. Think Margaret Diedre O’Hartigan. Hell, I’m a former radfem, and it was hella torment internalizing transsexualphobic views. (I was very invested in being GNC and used it as an excuse for transsexualphobia…) So, yeah, if she did she’d only have passing-as-cissexual privilege.
Cedar
17 Sep 08 at 2:51 pm
aside from the other ways i think youve misrepresented me, i feel i should at least clarify this:
“Your husband? Trans women can have husbands.”
No, im not married. Thats one of those things i havent done out of principle – i dont think people who marry should have more rights or better treatment than people in other relationships, including non sexual life partnerships (which i dont think are anywhere as rare as they are treated), poly partnerships, gay partnerships, trans partnerships, and partnerships among people who do not marry for atheist reasons. Thats why i use the non-gendered and non-number-specific words “partner/s” and “partnerships”, and it irritates the crap out of me when people see that and say “husband/marriage”. No, thanks. I do not have a husband, we are not married, we will never marry.
So i wanted to clarify that, at least, because it pisses me off no end. Other than that, im just utterly fed up of you putting words in my mouth and pretending to have any clue what i think or who i am. But i know if i say “i really think A”, youll translate it to B and be slagging me off for C in no time, so best to shut up really rather than waste my time.
v
17 Sep 08 at 3:55 pm
I only have your words to go by, V.
Your words say that being a woman means that you don’t benefit from cissexual privilege. Your words say that being oppressed as a woman, because of your economic class, because of gender-based violence you’ve experienced, means that your privileges do not count.
How about your assumption that you know anything about me, that you think you can call me a “rich girl,” that you can call being trans a convenience because you can’t relate to being trans? That you believe we have absolutely nothing in common just on the basis of you being cis (even though you don’t think you are) and me being trans?
I don’t think my reading of your statements is all that far off the mark.
I apologize for assuming about your male partner, however, and will correct the post.
Lisa Harney
17 Sep 08 at 4:04 pm
I think privilege is more than just how others treat us, its how we apply society’s messages to ourselves.
So yes, its passing as male privilege that allows a trans* woman to get into a prestigious all/mostly-male school before she comes out or transitions. But she is probably also internalizing many messages meant for cis* women (I’ve heard quite a few trans* women describe similar body issues as cis* women, for instance). Shes also internalizing transphobic messages and applying them to herself (even if she isn’t out of denial yet).
Like I know I have a lot of male privilege because I internalized a lot of male socialization (for instance, even when I was 7/8 I wouldn’t let myself cry if I got hurt) despite being assigned female at birth and growing up pretending to be a girl. And, even as I pretended to be a girl, I also pretended to be cis* (even to myself). That doesn’t mean I really had cis* privilege, I just passed for cis* for a while.
So yeah, you (general you) pretend to be your assigned gender/sex and you pretend to be cis* (even to yourself), but that doesn’t mean that you are your assigned gender/sex or that you are cis*. You may pass as assigned-gender/cis*, but that doesn’t mean that you are. You probably also aren’t internalizing gendered messages like a cis* person of your assigned gender would be. You are also internalizing transphobic messages and applying them to you–a cis* person would not apply transphobic messages to themselves.
drakyn
17 Sep 08 at 4:11 pm
Hey, I absorbed a lot of homophobic shit well before I was ready to admit I was gay. One could argue that that’s -why- it took me so long, of course; but maybe that’s a simpler transaction, that whole thing.
belledame222
17 Sep 08 at 4:24 pm
Elly,
What Drakyn and Cedar said.
Lisa Harney
17 Sep 08 at 4:26 pm
mostly though this feels like the familiar business of, (among other things of course), someone sees the term “privilege” and rankles: “What privilege! I don’t have anything! Fuck you!”
belledame222
17 Sep 08 at 4:26 pm
Belle,
Yes, totally! I absorbed a lot of homophobic shit, too… Like that I wasn’t supposed to be attracted to women.
Okay, wait?
Yeah, totally. Pre-transition, I was ashamed of being attracted to women. I didn’t want anyone to know. I tried to hide it. That’s how being trans can affect people.
(that wasn’t really aimed at you, Belle).
What is, of course, that I think it’s pretty similar – you’re told being gay or lesbian or bisexual is shameful, that you shouldn’t be attracted to members of the same sex, and this gets internalized. I think it’s pretty much the same process as for trans people. Society pressures us to be straight or cis.
Lisa Harney
17 Sep 08 at 4:29 pm
[...] 18Sep08 Comment left at Lisas: aside from the other ways i think youve misrepresented me, i feel i should at least clarify [...]
Lisa « resisterance mk2
17 Sep 08 at 4:32 pm
yes, that’s what I was trying to say. obviously if you have BOTH going on then, well, it gets exponentially more complicated.
belledame222
17 Sep 08 at 4:33 pm
And it’s not the same for all trans women. That experience of mine was kind of idiosyncratic, and I don’t know how many other trans women have had similar.
Lisa Harney
17 Sep 08 at 4:36 pm
I must say, I love how V seems to think we are saying that cis* women don’t get shat on by the kyriarchy, when in fact we are saying that cis* women get shat on for being women and that trans* women get shat on for both being women and for being trans*.
drakyn
17 Sep 08 at 4:48 pm
Hence the title, “Unclear on the concept” and the handy link to Audre Lorde’s essay at the end. It’s like she understands intersections, but primarily those that affect her and not so much those that affect trans people in general and trans women in specific.
Talking about how trans men sometimes experience sexist violence might blow her mind.
Lisa Harney
17 Sep 08 at 4:51 pm
Well, I don’t know if I should say that here, but…
Cedar:
“I highly suggest you read my essay that Lisa links to; it addresses all the points you’re raising, in detail.”
The problem is not really that I don’t understand. I understand that it is important for trans people to express their experience and not be told by cis people what it is.
The problem is that my experience actually corresponds more to what the cis people say (well not everyone of them). And it’s not just about “real” cis/male privilege or “passing as cis/male”, but nearly everything about cis vs trans “experience” before transition that I could read.
And I don’t know what to think. I am very divided between
1) saying that yes, trans women’s experience must always be validated by cis women, but I also feel that mine need to be validated by transsexual women.
2) noticing that when I try to express my experience or how I feel it ends up offending trans people and this isn’t what I want, and maybe I am just “colonizing” this identity and should admit I am not really trans.
I’m sorry, as I say this is probably the wrong place to say this, the problem is with me and not anything else _o_
Elly
18 Sep 08 at 6:39 am
I have renounced my privileges. I am a rabbit now.
queen emily
18 Sep 08 at 10:48 am
As an aside to some of the discussion on male privilege and the accusations of radfems that trans women “still exhibit it”, I’d quickly like to note something about that which I remarked to my friends when discussing such things – the whole thing is double standards, that trans women are held to a higher standard than cis women, and the same actions by cis women would simply be viewed as rude, butch, authoritative, etc, etc.
As for the ongoing discussion itself over the correct term, I like the idea of “passing as cis” privilege to a degree, especially for pretransition (since I sure wasn’t fully recognised as cis), but am wary of then how to properly (and positively) address the post-transition state. There is also, of course, the issue of any use of the word ‘passing’.
Squigglefish
18 Sep 08 at 12:45 pm
queenemily: but you now have anti-carrot privilege! fie! :)
z
18 Sep 08 at 2:08 pm
Elly,
Sorry if I was trying to speak to your experiences. I was speaking of a certain spectrum of experiences that I guess you haven’t had, but i don’t think that means you don’t fall under the wider trans umbrella. Whether you do is up to you. However, I’ll be clear about “knowing you’re trans and internalizing that” as being part of passing as cis in the future, and not making sweeping statements.
Squigglefish,
post-transition, I think “passing as cis” still applies. It’s different in that a trans woman might pass as a cis woman.
I want to get rid of the idea of “passing as a woman” for trans women, because trans women are women, and not passing as such. We’re not read as “not women” but as “trans” which is itself used to delegitimize trans identities.
I haven’t been able to think of a better word than “passing.” I have tried. I’m sure others like Cedar and Em have ideas.
Lisa Harney
18 Sep 08 at 2:10 pm
I think you’re probably right regarding “passing as cis” being the post-transition state. See, for example, how people live in fear of being ‘outed’, or how when a trans person loses those privileges once ‘outed’.
As for the word, perhaps “assumed to be cis”, or similar is a better idea – since it moves the one doing anything from the trans person, to those around them who effectively have the final say over if someone is to be regarded as cis or trans.
As for that horrid term regarding being correctly gendered (the expression I prefer to use), Julia Serano wrote some wonderful stuff on that in Whipping Girl, and how it ties into the concept of the deceptive trans.
Squigglefish
18 Sep 08 at 4:24 pm
Oh my God. Someone take off that stick out of that precious white cis-woman ass. I HAVE CHILDREN, YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT THAT IS. I love the ‘putting words in my mouth’ thing. You quoted her. I can read all that very well.
Cry more, cis-woman.
Noir
18 Sep 08 at 5:36 pm
I would say someone should show her the female privilege checklist, but I think she wouldn’t get it. :-/ …Irony is dead.
(like whoever it was that was so offended that some woman said “I know what it’s like to suddenly not have a brain in my head” re: auto mechanics or something similar! Like, WTF? OH RIGHT YOU’RE NOT LISTENING. My mistake, I thought you’d been looking for what I meant not something to attack with.
Cedar
20 Sep 08 at 2:07 am