Kapos
[ETA: Re-arranged a bit and changed some language per discussion in comments with Zoe Brain.]
Heya everybody, GallingGalla here, she of the recently-nuked blog. Yeah, I was just getting so weary of constantly battling cis feminists defining their theories all over my body. But, there’s one subject that I felt like I need to speak out on, and I am honored that Lisa invited me to write a guest post about this subject here.
Anyway, from Wikipedia, kapo:
was a term used for certain prisoners who worked inside Nazi concentration camps during World War II in various lower administrative positions.
The German word also means “foreman” and “non-commissioned officer“, and is derived from French for “Corporal” (fr:Caporal) or the Italian word capo[1][2]‘. Kapos received more privileges than normal prisoners, towards whom they were often brutal. They were often convicts who were offered this work in exchange for a reduced sentence or parole, however they were usually murdered and replaced with a new batch of prisoners at regular intervals.
Evangelina Carters is a therapist and an HBS woman who offers this handy classification guide to help us distinguish between the rare flawless gem that is the “true transsexual” and the rest of us, shall I say, “damaged goods”. Please go read it. I’m not going to fisk this in detail, because, really, my stomach has limits.
I think that this piece is rather well representative of the attitudes of HBS women. It is clear that she writes it from the perspective of a white, middle-class, heteronormative woman who views the world through a cis lens. In and of itself, writing from that perspective certainly won’t make you any friends outside of that narrow little world, but I don’t think you’ll be sent to the lake of fire, either. However, saying that yours is the only valid perspective, and using that perspective and your privileges to split yourself off from the community that you are part of while actively enabling those who are oppressing that same community is, in my mind, a moral outrage. And that is exactly what Ms. Carters, and many HBS women, are doing.
HBS women define an extremely narrow life trajectory that they think is the only legitimate one for trans* women to follow (I say “woman” because, like many other transmisogynist women, HBS women all but erase the existence of trans men): that of the woman who senses her target gender at an early age; who transitions fully, with the proper hormones and proper surgery, as soon as possible; who is heterosexual upon transition; who is completely and totally stealth; who absolutely will not associate, in any way, with any element of the LGBTQ community. (You’ll note that she calls trans women who do not fit that exact trajectory “transgender men”.) Those who follow that narrow trajectory account for only a very small part of the trans* / genderqueer / gender-variant population.
HBS women then proceed to argue that cis society (including, notably, anti-trans radical feminists and white, middle-class feminists in general) grant them special privileges to them and only them while at the same time they pull rank with that same cis society in oppressing those trans* / gq / gv people that are not part of their special club.
Carters uses gender-essentialist language that is ludicrous on its face:
True transsexuals have a greater number of sex markers congruent with the sex of their brain: hands tend to be smaller, feet smaller, noses smaller, physical frame smaller, and generally slightly wider hips than normal for a male. Often the effect of puberty was not as dramatic as in normal males, though not in all cases. This physicality also explained the marked difference in ages that the affected people became aware that they had something different about them.
This has to be one of the finest examples of just-so “science” that I’ve seen in a long time. Talk about warping inventing reality to fit your pet theory. Carters could teach anti-trans radical feminists a thing or two.
HBS women are:
(1) trying to carve out a chunk of special cis/heteronormative-society-granted privilege for themselves while actively and knowingly participating in the continued oppression of the vast majority of trans* / gq / gv people;
(2) making hateful statements that are very similar to those made by anti-trans radical feminists, and therefore directly participating with them in the oppression of trans* / gq / gv people, including enabling their murders. Both anti-trans radical feminists and HBS women are using cis men as their proxies to commit acts of violence that they are too embarrassed or too ‘pure-wymynly-non-violent’ or too properly ladylike to commit. This may not be their (anti-trans radical feminists and HBS women) conscious intent, but that is the *effect*;
(3) engaging in blatant classism (including statements to the effect that trans women who are so poor that they are living on the street “just aren’t committed enough, they can scrape up the money somehow”);
(4) engaging in blatant racism; they know or *should know* how race and class are tied together. Here’s a very ugly example of simultaneous racism and transmisogyny – HBS-er Cathryn Platine write regarding Autumn Sandeen, a blogger at Pam’s House Blend:
When trans identified people approach women’s space as trans, they are confirming the accusations of the radical separatists, they are essentially trying to colonize or invade women’s space. This would seem to be a no brainer to me, but is a rather simple concept that immediately raises the back hairs of the transgendered crowd. It apparently is so threatening a concept that Pam Spaulding’s of Pam’s House Blend Blog house tranny, Autumn Sandeen, branded it hate speech! Sandeen is someone who is actually trying to raise money to go to the Democratic Convention for the specific purpose of causing a bathroom incident! Holy crap Batman. If this isn’t a perfect example of someone who claims womanhood on the one hand and denies it on the other trying to invade women’s space, I have no idea what would. It would seem self evident to me that if you are not woman identified you do not belong in women’s space.
(“House tranny” references the term “House Negro“.)
(5) engaging in blatant ableism, by stating that every trans* / gq / gv person except themselves, is mentally ill / “paraphilic” / “fetishistic”;
(6) are in general creating yet another structure of privilege and therefore actively reinforcing kyriarchy;
(6a) as part of that, are silencing trans men and those on the f-to-* spectrum.
HBS women are doing this for privileges that are illusory. Calling yourself an “HBS woman” will not protect you from losing your job when you are outed. Spitting in the faces of other trans* / gq / gv people will not protect you from being beaten up in the women’s bathroom by Alix Dobkin’s friends who just clocked you, or from being arrested, abused, and possibly raped by those transphobic cops. And splitting yourself from the rest of your community will not stop the ever-present, low-level, subconscious fear of being clocked, outed, scanned, questioned, doubted, delegitimized, silenced, erased. HBS women are part of the trans* / gq / gv community whether they like it or not.
Zoe Brain has a more nuanced and complex take on HBS and the question of transsexual / intersex. Please read the entire article. I will say, however, that I am uncomfortable with these two paragraphs, as there seem to be some mixed messages and I will admit that I was triggered by the third sentence in the first paragraph below, and I’m having trouble fitting it into the context of the rest of the article:
I place zero weight on my own self-perceptions, that I’m just a woman with an interesting medical history . Likewise my own desires as to what “should be”. For if I had my druthers, there would be a nice neat binary, with HBS men and women easily and clearly distinguished from a variety of self-advertising publicity-seeking “TG Pride” paraphiliacs and fetishists.
For that matter, I would like to be either regarded as Intersexed or Transsexual(ie only neurally Intersexed), and not something in-between, with characteristics of both. Still, if I’m going to dream, let’s go back to conception and give me 46xx chromosomes and a standard factory model female body, one that matches my brain.
It is time to call out HBS women who actively participate in the oppression of trans* / genderqueer / gender variant people for what they are: Kyriarchists. Kapos.
And it is time for the trans* / gq / gv community to stop tolerating their behavior.
[ETA: I neglected to link to Zoe Brain's post, and also, as requested in her comment, I extended the quotation from her article.]
Despite the smug self-superiority and sanctimonious attitude, I feel sorry for her and people like her. The internalised transphobia and homophobia just oozes from every paragraph, and apparently consumes them to the point where they need to construct some sort of delusional existence to justify themselves as “anything but one of those sex-change weirdos” in their own minds.
They may look down on those of us who choose to integrate and embrace our journeys, and see them as valuable in determining who we are, as mere “transgendered male fetishists”, and speak of us with mock concern, about how we poor deluded fools can be helped, at least to some extent, thanks to modern medicine, even if everyone else will *obviously* still just laugh at us behind our backs; we have achieved something they haven’t, however. We have escaped from a existence of hiding behind a facade, refusing to acknowledge who and what we are. They seem to be unable to loosen their death grip on that particular hell.
But ultimately you’re right. We may try and understand the self hatred and lack of personal realisation which gives rise to the HBS delusion, but that does nothing to lessen the impact that their bigotry and hatefulness has on transpeople everywhere else, and we absolutely shouldn’t tolerate it.
Sarah Brown
31 Aug 08 at 9:18 pm
One of these days they’ll figure out that they won’t be accepted into that particular club no matter who they disclaim and how far they’re willing to boot everyone and their cousin back. Looks pretty damn far from over here, too. N’fact, I think I hear an echo. Paraphilic, fetishistic? ~Sniffs~ So sorry but no, not the reason m’transitioning. However, such nosy bastards can keep out of my sex life as well, now that I think about it.
A.W.
31 Aug 08 at 9:19 pm
Sarah:
Yes. No matter how much I hated myself for being trans, I couldn’t stop being trans.
Lisa Harney
31 Aug 08 at 9:52 pm
Very interesting. Reminds me a little of the Milgram experiments.
z
31 Aug 08 at 9:57 pm
Actually, sorry, I meant the Stanford prison experiments.
z
31 Aug 08 at 9:59 pm
If one has disavowed any connection to trans-anything, one cannot critique the same trans-anything from the position of an insider.
jayinchicago
31 Aug 08 at 10:19 pm
I was a casualty of the great “house tranny” war on Pam’s House Blend a few months ago. I felt as if I almost broke myself trying to explain why trans persons have a legitimate right to exist in the face of really aggressive and viscious feminist personal attacks. I stayed with that thread quite literally for almost two weeks. Then ended up limping away injured and unsupported. I have since deleted all links to Pam’s House Blend and I will characterize the feminist community there as backward and reactionary. I did once have such high hopes for the progressive community.
cybelline1
1 Sep 08 at 3:07 am
I read the PDF of the comment thread a week or two after it was frozen, and I remember you had a lot of exchanges with MauraHennessy.
And HappyCat.
That discussion was a huge mess.
One of the overall problems with many feminist blogs is that derails into why trans people don’t belong in women only space and “but whyyyyy” requests for justifications are allowed to continue into perpetuity. This happens with women of color and women with disabilities as well. Exactly the same thing, as I pointed to in the transphobia post a bit ago.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 08 at 3:29 am
That said, I’ve never had a bad experience at PHB. Sympathies, though.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 08 at 3:36 am
cybelline1,
I have been a target of this diluted group of humanity for a decade, especially from Cathy P. I’m sending you a vertical hug. There is one thing that makes me smile, “karma.” “What comes around goes around.” I have lived long enough to see it happen many many times. I have had good things happen in my life and people like Cathy have not. I am still working at the same job with decent pay for 18.5 years and transitioned on the job. I must be doing something right.
Just let karma do its job and as long as you live a good life and help others, good things will come your way.
Monica Helms
1 Sep 08 at 3:40 am
Thank you – I feel hugged and supported. I am glad I exist and I love that I live and breathe as a woman in my own right!! Wow I never really expected that others would actually read my comment! I guess i am not the only geek sipping coffee and reading blogs before sunrise on labor day! Thank you again for maikng my world a little cheerier.
cybelline1
1 Sep 08 at 4:12 am
cybelline1,
(((*hugs*))) from another casualty of PHB. I left before the “house tranny wars”, but well after Autumn Sandeen had started blogging there. I was just getting tired of (at that time) gay men calling me a “freak”, “monster”, “bitch”, “you’re a tranny, so you can’t be a lesbian” while they sat there and defended their blatant hatred of trans folk and especially trans women. They got occasional help from the random anti-trans radfem, and trashed those few allies who stood up for us. Pam and Autumn did very little to put a stop to this. So I left.
When I made a brief visit during the “house tranny wars”, Autumn had just written the “pulled the trapdoor” post that I referenced. I read how they were trying to make PHB a safe space for trans* folk, and went “Yeah, right”.
Maybe things have changed there, but once burned, twice shy (is that how the saying goes?)
GallingGalla
1 Sep 08 at 6:58 am
every group has their fundamentalists. they can easily be identified by their use of the term “true” x, when they refer to themselves.
nexyjo
1 Sep 08 at 7:14 am
Absolutely, GG. Generally, HBS people seem to be under the delusion that, by fully identifying with a cissexist and heteronormative society, they’ll be protected from discrimination etc. The problem is not society in general, it’s those damn in-yer-face transgender fetishists.
Their activism, as I’ve put it elsewhere, largely amounts to (rather viciously ime) defending the status quo – arguing that legal recognition stay restricted to post-op people (as though we just magically clap our hands three time and the transition’s over, as though no-hormone and no-op people don’t deserve rights etc etc)
Needless to say, this is just all self-defeatingly, willfully stupid.
queenemily
1 Sep 08 at 7:34 am
“(6a) as part of that, are silencing trans men and those on the f-to-* spectrum.”
I admit, I was surprised to see FtMs getting a mention at all. Then again, the only reason for mentioning “Carl” was to use him as some form of nebulous proof to underline the theories about “true” MtFs — other context does not exist.
The listed requirements for this Holy Grail of Transness look rather scary to me. I’m still catching up with a lot of reading material about “old guard” / “gate keepers” et cetera, but so far there doesn’t seem to be any difference between those and HBS fanatics. Be gender normative. Be physically attractive enough for transitioning. Say you’ve “always known”. Be heterosexual. Erase your past completely.
And the last point got presented in the text as something to *strive for*. A positive marker. I just blinked disbelievingly. So if I want to make up a past I never had, erase the past I *did* have, cut off all my old friends and family, possibly leave my partner (if I have any), move far away, and change jobs so nobody could ever question me — that is seen as a *good* sign? What the hell?
And on a personal note, the pressure on gender/hetero normativity is sickening. For a long while, I thought I *couldn’t* be trans because all I had as a model were transsexuals who behaved very stereotypically gendered. That’s the ones you get to see on the media, you know? I do not want to dismiss that this was what *they* wanted, but I didn’t feel comfortable in that particular gender role. So I thought, huh, you know there’s something very, very off about you, but apparently it can’t be *this*. Better look elsewhere.
And – sorry for the capslock – THAT HAS COST ME AT LEAST THREE FUCKING YEARS. Three years, probably more, spent with unnecessary questioning and anxious patrolling of boundaries. I want those years back, dammit.
Off-topic, but I need to say this: it’s good to see you writing again, GallingGalla. When your blog showed only a “deleted” page, I felt quite upset (partly because I worried about you — thankfully, you replied to a post on The Corvid Diaries, so I knew you were okay). Somehow I still can’t bring myself to kick your old blog URL off my feed list. Not that I’d want to pressure you into anything — you needed a break, take all the time you want — just, you know, don’t disappear completely on us? :)
transientdesire
1 Sep 08 at 7:54 am
queenemily:
as though we just magically clap our hands three time and the transition’s over, as though no-hormone and no-op people don’t deserve rights etc etc
You must be right. I tried clapping my hands three times just now, then looked down at my Official Gender Determination Area (*ehem*) and nothing changed…
transientdesire:
Off-topic, but I need to say this: it’s good to see you writing again, GallingGalla.
Yeah, I reached a real low point when I deleted my blog. I’m finding that I am isolating myself from society cos I’ve internalized the cis worlds’ message that I do not belong in society. I’m not over that by any means, and I may never be able to move past that. I’m told that I “take up too much space”, so I’m afraid to take up any space – even if it is just to take a Spanish class.
When I saw that the HBS women are sending out that same message – that because I do not fit their narrative of trans truthyness, I do not deserve to exist – I could not remain silent. I personally get so angry that I want to borrow Drakyn’s metal-encased fist and break some faces.
I’ve not got it in me to write much else these days, but I’m sure you’ll see me around, at least in comments on other blogs.
Thank you for caring. It means a lot to me.
GallingGalla
1 Sep 08 at 8:25 am
GallingGalla – I was a lurker on your blog, and was also wondering where you’d gone – glad you’re still around and about!
I’m proud of all my fellow trans people who fail to fit the “appropriate” life trajectory, because we’re all very mature in our response to these people…
My patience just cracks, and I want to shout transphobic things at these women in the vague hope that they’ll get the point – society wouldn’t give them a free pass either, if it found out.
Meh. It’s obvious that they hate themselves more than anyone else – has there ever been a more obvious example of internalised ANYTHING?
But… as I’m sure a lot of us pointed out when complaining of school bullying, “Oh good, the bullies have low self-esteem. Have they stopped? No? So that’s comforting because?”
Oliver FP
1 Sep 08 at 8:38 am
Hey GG, good to see you posting here… :)
As i think i’ve said before, this whole HBS thing reminds me in a BIG way of the “high functioning/low functioning” bullshit in the autism community, and particularly the “shiny Aspie” types who try to separate “Asperger’s” from the rest of the autistic spectrum and proclaim superiority, while supporting the incarceration and compulsory medication of “low-functioning” people.
(Ironically, i fit the “shiny Aspie” profile fairly well, while my best friend fits the “HBS” profile even more accurately… yet, guess what? Neither of us, being part of an arguably slightly loose and nebulous, but still very real, community of queers, crips, anarchists and other awkward oddballs, subscribes to any of this divide-and-rule bullshit in any way whatsoever…)
One little thing: I’m not sure that the phrase “house tranny” necessarily constitutes racism, because the “house negro” was the analogue in the US slave plantations of the “Kapo” (and Malcolm X used the term for black liberals/capitalists in exactly the same way you’re using “Kapo” here).
( didn’t know Zoe Brain was into this shit, btw. Only read her blog a few times, but i respected her.)
“Off-topic, but I need to say this: it’s good to see you writing again, GallingGalla. When your blog showed only a “deleted” page, I felt quite upset (partly because I worried about you — thankfully, you replied to a post on The Corvid Diaries, so I knew you were okay). Somehow I still can’t bring myself to kick your old blog URL off my feed list. Not that I’d want to pressure you into anything — you needed a break, take all the time you want — just, you know, don’t disappear completely on us? :)”
Seconded. The world needs people like you taking up as much space as possible.
ETA: that pseudo-clinical description of “HBS” actually looks very much like a description of partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (PAIS). Of course, they would probably be just as horrified by the thought of being identified with the intersex spectrum (probably too much like being disabled for them)…
shiva
1 Sep 08 at 9:04 am
Heya, shiva.
yeah, there are frightening parallels between the ASD community (“shiny aspies” and curebies) and the trans community; it’s the same kind of splitting.
ETA: that pseudo-clinical description of “HBS” actually looks very much like a description of partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (PAIS). Of course, they would probably be just as horrified by the thought of being identified with the intersex spectrum (probably too much like being disabled for them)…
Actually, a lot of HBS women posit themselves as being intersex, and appropriate from the intersex community as a means of splitting themselves off from us “paraphiliacs” and “fetishists”.
I do disagree with you about the racial implications of “house tranny”. Malcolm X may have repurposed the word somewhat, but the division between “field negro” and “house negro” was a real one during slave-holding times. I find it offensive in the extreme that Ms. Platine would use that term *on a blog owned by a black woman* as a means of slandering both Autumn Sandeen *and* Pam Spaulding.
GallingGalla
1 Sep 08 at 9:42 am
“the division between “field negro” and “house negro” was a real one during slave-holding times.”
Yes, it was, but the “house negro” was the pretty close equivalent of the “Kapo”. It’s a disparaging term when used upwards, meaning a member of an oppressed minority who sucks up to hir oppressors and tries to disassociate hirself from the rest of hir group, as a response to having been either born with or given a relative level of comfort and privilege (when, of course, the real holder of the power could revoke that and send them back to the field at any time).
If the HBS crew were trying to use it “downwards”, then i think that shows a staggering ignorance of what the term means, more than anything…
shiva
1 Sep 08 at 10:27 am
I think one reason trans men are sometimes conspicuously left out of discussions on HBS/’true transexualism’ is because you can’t as easily separate us into pre-op post-op categories. At least in the US, in many states a trans man who hasn’t had lower surgery can still procure an ‘M’ on all documentation–license, passport, birth certificate, with social security, etc–if he has had chest reconstruction. A ‘post-transition’, legal, non-lower surgery having man is a bit of a fly in the ointment. Also, given there are arguably 2-4 different lower surgery options for trans men, it’s a lot harder to refer to something as “the” surgery.
But there are HBS/’true transsexual’ men out there, one of whom I run into frequently who has no qualms about proclaiming himself “intersex”.
And, gallinggalla, I have also missed your blog.
jayinchicago
1 Sep 08 at 12:13 pm
I think there’s a difference between Malcolm X talking about “house negros” or GallingGalla talking about “kapos” and a white woman talking about “house trannies,” Shiva. And what GG said about using it on Pam Spaulding’s blog.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 08 at 12:51 pm
Almost all of the HBS people I have encountered insist that they must be intersex. None of them ever stop to consider that such an insistence is asking to be tested, and any formal medical assistance stopped when no signs of this can be found. As none of them have ever been in an MRI scanner, none of them have any proof for this insistence. And if formal medical assistance were to be withdrawn, they could not turn to internet pharmacies, since only the fetishists and freaks use those and real doctors have always been perfectly true and honest and out for the best!!11! … ¬.¬
If you can stomach reading some of their HBS propaganda, they allow for people to opt not to have surgery until the results are acceptable for them. This makes you, according to their scheme permanently ‘pre-op’. What they don’t say in those articles is that in other writings on the very same site, they are excessively hateful of the pre-op, and deny a pre-op person any rights to be of their prefered gender.
The thing that always struck me about these people, which I have written about before now, is how many of them insist that they are completely different from ‘false’ transsexuals, transvestites and cross dressers, and these other people are deserving of what they get and only they, the special HBS snowflakes, deserve any rights. This notion of magical auras of differentness, of how transphobic people would care about any of that, would ever go “oh, you claim to be intersex? That’s alright then”… there is absolutely no grounding in reality for any of it.
I really feel sorry for these people, I really do. As Sarah Brown said, they clearly have their own demons eating them up inside. And this belief that their magical difference will protect them is only asking for disappointment. I’ve also met some people who have adopted the HBS title without understanding what it is that they have fallen into, then suddenly find themselves caught up in all the mess.
The worst of it is that most HBS sites are based around one very dominant, very persuasive person. They become effectively cults, luring you in with the promise of safety and understanding, but entrap people with a culture which says that if you dare think different to the leader, then you are the perverted freakish enemy.
Squigglefish
1 Sep 08 at 1:24 pm
One thing that GG doesn’t seem to talk about much are their statements to the effect that they can will transphobia away. By simply “being the woman they are in their hearts and not identifying as trans” no one will discriminate against them, and that it’s somehow everyone else’s failure when they experience transphobia.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 08 at 1:40 pm
This was great reading! Sometimes I feel so alone when all the transpeople I hear about are “true transsexuals”. They also cost me almost 5 years, where I couldn’t see myself as trans the way they were; heteronormative, normal, opressing other minorities etc.
Not long ago, I was involved in a discussion about these transphobic opinions and if they exist outside Scandinavia. We were two transmen: me from Norway and the other one from Sweden.
Excuse my lack of information, but what does HBS stand for? Is it an organisation like the one we have in Norway?
Btw: Because of the social system in Norway, where we get all treatment almost for free, we are forced to be kastrated (removal of all possibility of pregnancy) to get an M on the driver’s license.
Tarald
1 Sep 08 at 1:57 pm
HBS = Harry Benjamin Syndrome. The movement is to replace gender identity disorder or “transsexual” with “HBS,” which they’ve defined as an intersex condition despite lack of research or peer review. There’s research that points to the possibility of biological causes, but I find it problematic to conclude that because being trans has to do with your body’s sex that it must also be an intersex condition.
And also that the research necessarily supports this division into “true transsexual people” and “transgender people”.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 08 at 2:01 pm
“I’m proud of all my fellow trans people who fail to fit the “appropriate” life trajectory, because we’re all very mature in our response to these people…”
To be truthful my first response was along the lines of “Well fuck you, too!”. It was also, arguably, my second and third response. Possibly my fourth, I was/am exhausted and irritable. Every time they type something it’s, well….ugh. And then came a bit of a backtrack, I mean, are they absolutely – sure – they can spare a verbal inclusion of a few trans men? Not going to make their house of cards topple from the possible ambiguities, is it?
A.W.
1 Sep 08 at 2:25 pm
Well, trans men are convenient to show what true trans women look like before starting transition.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 08 at 2:55 pm
They don’t just define it as an intersex condition despite a lack of research, they actively co-opt research to claim that HBS has a scientific backing. this can vary from the expected (research into brain sex), to the downright lying. They like to claim that HBS has the support of a long list of doctors, but when you check what they reference for that, it actually is a WPATH statement on transsexualism/GID, with no mention at all of HBS.
Squigglefish
1 Sep 08 at 3:28 pm
True, all that.
Plus, their vocal advocacy alienates intersex activists, and the insistence that surgery is absolutely necessary for valid womanhood is completely at odds to intersex activism. They’re not trying to be sensitive to intersex issues at all.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 08 at 4:30 pm
Tarald,
Because reproductive justice is only for cis people. :(
The news that Sweden wants to do the same thing made the rounds recently.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 08 at 4:34 pm
okay, so Renee/Rainsong is like this dialed up to 11 with a radical feminist overlay, then? that explains a lot.
belledame222
1 Sep 08 at 4:40 pm
and, ugh, so much for the unambivalently preferable enlightened wonderfulness of Scandinavia…
belledame222
1 Sep 08 at 4:41 pm
One thing that GG doesn’t seem to talk about much are their statements to the effect that they can will transphobia away. By simply “being the woman they are in their hearts and not identifying as trans” no one will discriminate against them, and that it’s somehow everyone else’s failure when they experience transphobia.
It’s true that I did not say this directly, but I did imply this in the “being granted privileges by cis society … privileges are illusory” bit.
erhhmmm … I’ll stop retconning now… >_> <_<
GallingGalla
1 Sep 08 at 5:46 pm
Hey, I said “talk about much” not talk about at all. :)
I also wanted to be explicit, because Jennifer Usher came into the transphobia thread and said it in so many words. Strange how she never came back.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 08 at 6:38 pm
and, ugh, so much for the unambivalently preferable enlightened wonderfulness of Scandinavia…
Canada is enlightened! After all, they’ve got Jurassic Clarke, and the Vancouver Rape Relief For Those We Approve Of Center, and the Canadian “Nevermind the other 47 or wev rape relief centers that are open no questions asked to trans women, VRR is Teh One!” Supreme Court…
… oh wait … guess Canada ain’t so great.
New Zealand?
GallingGalla
1 Sep 08 at 8:33 pm
What a sad woman. Under her definitions I would be HBS but there’s no way I want to be associated with that classification. In the end for me, it wasn’t *why* I felt like I did. That didn’t matter. It was that I did. So I did something about it. The followers of the HBS concept obviously have their own internal daemons and phobias. I wonder how long it is before their carefully constructed mechanisms for coping with these phobias will collapse.
Melanie Lewis
2 Sep 08 at 12:45 am
“and the insistence that surgery is absolutely necessary for valid womanhood is completely at odds to intersex activism. They’re not trying to be sensitive to intersex issues at all.”
TRUTH. (once again disability movement parallels too…)
Could i ask some of you people what you think of the body acceptance/body autonomoy (false?) dichotomy that i wrote about in my latest post? I’d really appreciate your perspectives (perhaps comment over there so as not to derail this thread)…
shiva
2 Sep 08 at 2:06 am
It irks me. She is defining a “True transsexual” as someone who passes well or exhibits feminine mannerisms as soon as they come in the room for the first time. Oh, also, they have to be skinny and small.
… So .. you mean those I purposefully suppressed in order to fool myself and others into thinking I was normal? The things that people have been shamed into thinking were wrong and disgusting?
feh.
polerin
2 Sep 08 at 8:36 am
She is defining a “True transsexual” as someone who passes well or exhibits feminine mannerisms as soon as they come in the room for the first time. Oh, also, they have to be skinny and small.
I wasn’t quite sure what to make of her claiming there was a connection between that feminine appearance and being aware of your transness very early in life. Apparently you can influence things like your body size at will? And if you happen to be fat, or tall, or for some reason couldn’t afford / weren’t granted early hormonal treatment, then you’re a fake …
And did anyone else find it weird how she held any addictions, mental issues, and the like of “fake” transwomen against them, but had nothing but empathy and pity for the “true” transwoman who was a psychological wreck when she came into her office?
Honestly, each time I read that page, I find something new that annoys or puzzles me. It’s like a layer cake of -isms.
transientdesire
2 Sep 08 at 3:56 pm
It may even be a multi-course meal. Every course a new layer cake.
Lisa Harney
2 Sep 08 at 5:06 pm
HBS bingo card!!
GallingGalla
2 Sep 08 at 5:52 pm
I’d actually been writing down a list of HBS arguments, as I’m relatively new to this fanatic True Transsexuals schtick and trying to, uh… get an overview. (And of course, I’d then compare myself to it to see how I’m deficient, perverted, and delusional… but duh, I’m FtM, I don’t exist. *g*)
Might put up a post when I’m done and ask for further suggestions and how to best narrow it down for a card. Unless there already exists one, of course, but I haven’t seen it yet?
transientdesire
2 Sep 08 at 9:21 pm
I’m a trans* guy too and I see myself in all three sections. 0.0
I’m feminine, queer, have known myself to be a guy since I was tiny…
I fail at fitting into categories neatly.
O wate, everyone does. ^.~
drakyn
2 Sep 08 at 11:39 pm
I’ve had my own battles with various WWBT’s after I called them out on TransGriot for their racism and their myopically selfish self centered thinking.
They don’t care about anyone except their own little niche group.
Monica Roberts
3 Sep 08 at 8:02 am
I fit the HBS diagnosis. When I first read about this, my first thoughts were “oh thank goodness – a reason, an actual THING that tells me whats been going on”. Then I started to break it down, and break down the supporters…
While there *may* by a physical/chemical “cause” for various trans* stuff – ultimately it shouldn’t matter if I’m trans because of foetal estrogenation or it was my prize in that fateful box of Fruty Pebbles.
The desire to place people into categories and then make one of those categories more valid than the others. (1) is pure shit (2) isn’t very “lady like” and those HBS gals do lurve the “lady like”.
Then the language used. I’ll admit, sometmes I discuss things with a self-ID’d Cross-Dresser and we really have little in common. However, I have seen HBS or “True Transsesuals” virtually roast a young trans-woman who expressed that she didn’t know what she was going to do about the penis. She was “Just a CD”, she was “bringing her Part-Time T-girl crap up again”.
That last was the final straw for me. It was nice to be able to point to something that worked for me. But if that “something” marganilizes the majority of my sisters then that “something” needs to be re evaluated.
rioTgirl
3 Sep 08 at 8:57 am
Monica
Until they rush into a conversation involving trans people and neutral-tending-hostile folks, and start going off about how transgenders raped them and their friends, and yes, this has happened in one discussion I was in, and nearly happened in a second. Not counting of course the long-term serial trolling at TransAdvocate and Bilerico.
I also like how they take any disagreement with them completely out of context and pretend that the start of the argument was when they were told to fuck off. Cathryn’s done it to Marti, Jennifer Usher did it to you, etc.
But yeah, they really don’t care about anyone but their narrowly defined group. It’s just the part where they actively troll to sabotage trans discussions.
Lisa Harney
3 Sep 08 at 10:13 am
It’s not just online discussion they troll, if you read their stories they talk about “educating” their doctors and therapists with their BS. I think thats even worse!
drakyn
3 Sep 08 at 12:04 pm
It is worse, and I hope their doctors and therapists can see there’s no peer review here.
Well, except for the part where Cathryn is trying to link “rapist” and “transgender” for feminists. Not that the link hasn’t already been made before, but this time a trans woman is “confirming” it. I don’t think that shit is confined to online discussions, either.
Lisa Harney
3 Sep 08 at 12:29 pm
I know of at least one who, at least they claim, actually has diagnosis of HBS not GID o.O
Squigglefish
3 Sep 08 at 1:00 pm
Don’t judge the cited studies on the the messeger (HBS people) who squeeze it to fit their worldview. There is actual enough evidence that TG (and not only TS) is braindevelopment based and related to intersexed conditions. Zoë Brain has a very good article about that:
http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2008/06/bigender-and-brain.html
Sarah
4 Sep 08 at 11:58 am
That doesn’t really demonstrate that it’s an intersex condition. She draws parallels between her experiences and those of trans women, and I certainly don’t argue with her for identifying strongly as trans (and of course, intersex people can be trans), though, and it doesn’t deny there may be a connection. Just… I think the problem is that the science she’s quoted is apparently not actually seen as conclusive evidence, and that it’s asserted as totally confirmed and true.
Lisa Harney
4 Sep 08 at 12:20 pm
Each study was based on the last and in this way proofed it, and that happend over and over again. Often with different ways to determin it.
I can’t see whats unclear with that evidence. I can’t see why people always say its unsupportet, not peer revied and what else.
What I see is a kind of unholy alliance.
TG reject it cause they fear, they may not fit in, would be abducted when it can be found out early enough and some other cases.
Psychologists still insist on psychological reasoning which each pet theory in the last 50 years always not only not prooved but often enough statistically destroid.
But they earn a lot of money claiming that view.
The wider public always sees TG people as sick weirdos and so the psychological cause is petted and easier accepted by the rest of the society.
Sarah
4 Sep 08 at 12:38 pm
I never was judging the studies on the messenger.
TG people don’t immediately support studies into brain differences, because brain differences are just asking for arbitrary testing to be introduced by gatekeepers.
I see that Zoe has lept on the recent study into brain size differences, without ever considering the major, and frankly obvious flaws in this study. It also actively ignores trans people, especially trans people with same-gender attractions.
(Zhou et al 1995) is a much more appropriate study, yet to complain about people finding this not conclusive is frankly silly – of course it is not conclusive! The sample sizes were ridiculously low, testing required that the subjects be dead (which introduces all kinds of other factors), and it is not conclusively shown that sex hormone treatment does not effect the results. Whilst this is a great precursor study, it merely hints at possibilities, and certainly does not prove anything.
(Kruijver et al, 2000) is based on the same data as Zhou 1995, and reading the study, it appears to actually be the exact same work as that earlier publication!
The issues with leaping upon these studies as proof are threefold. Firstly, they are clearly not. Laypeople are all too often led astray by over-excitable media, that play the sensation, not the research, and don’t know how to critically read papers. For those who know how to, this research is intriguing, but little more than that. Secondly, similarly to the quest for a ‘gay gene’, there are ethical issues the length of many, many arms. I would not trust it to be used ethically, or for the conservative right-wing religious to not decree that it should be used to cleanse the heathens. Finally, leaping on studies as inconclusive as these, with natural variations so very large even amongst the cis population, is asking for unhelpful and ultimately harming testing procedures to be introduced. Whatever brain states may be, they will not change who I am, but the medical profession’s gatekeepers have repeatedly proven themselves to not care about my personal wellbeing, and they would have no incentive to help any trans person who does not fit their tests.
Finally, but unrelated to the studies, most determined supporters of TS as IS insist that part of the reason for this is that then they will radiate magical IS waves that will make everyone stop being nasty to them. But being IS in origin does not change anything as far as the rest of the world is concerned. Whilst this doesn’t invalidate the studies, it does make it clear that this is not a valid reason for conducting them.
Squigglefish
4 Sep 08 at 1:22 pm
No, that’s not a cool assertion to make. You’re claiming to know why people think what they think. You’re demonizing people vaguely defined as “transgender” for reasons you can’t possibly know.
Transgender people aren’t out to get transsexual people. That’s one of the nastier assertions from HBSers, the constant demonization of people they don’t consider transsexual (and this determination is often made arbitrarily, on the basis of online interactions, on the basis of economic standing or even race).
There’s no unholy alliance there and transgender people aren’t oppressing us.
Mental conditions can have biological causes as well – and a significant number do have biological causes. There’s no Cartesian separation of mind and body at work. Being transsexual is a mental state that can only be resolved by physical intervention, and that mental state most likely has biological cause.
And if there’s a biological cause for people who know when they’re 4 years old, and who can only focus on transitioning until everything’s done (assuming they can afford to and don’t get caught in no surgery limbo), I don’t see how it can remotely be asserted that only transsexual people have a biological cause, and anyone who doesn’t fit under the strict HBS definitions is somehow categorically different. And even if people who aren’t classically transsexual don’t show signs of the same causes, what they’re experiencing is still as real as what we experience, and they certainly shouldn’t be treated as if they’re freaks, as many HBS people seem to think is cool.
For the record, I fit Carters’ definitions of a “true transsexual” to a “T”. Not that it should matter – nor do I think that trans women like me are the only trans women who qualify as transsexual – I don’t think gender identity is so strict, and I think that Carters is too quick to define other transsexual women as “transgender” simply because she can’t sympathize with them as readily.
The conclusion that HBS is an intersex syndrome is not peer reviewed.
The science that Zoe quotes points to an almost definitive biological underpinning for this stuff, but what it doesn’t do is demonstrate that HBS is an intersex syndrome. Zoe does draw a connection between her own feelings and those described by trans people, to the point that she certainly identifies strongly with trans people, and that’s certainly valid, but it doesn’t mean that 5ARD and 17BHDD are actually related to being transsexual.
I’m sorry if it seemed that I was saying the science doesn’t point to a biological cause. I am certainly interested in the probability of a biological cause, but I don’t think it should be entirely relevant to the fact that people exist with a wide array of needs wrt sex and gender that medical science can address, and I don’t think trying to ghettoize a large group politically and medically – especially a group so strongly associated in the public eye with transsexual people is doing any of us any favors.
Lisa Harney
4 Sep 08 at 1:26 pm
Also, what Squigglefish said. Every bit of it.
Also:
IS is not a blame-free category, either. Intersex people have to deal with all kinds of shit, especially medical shit, for being IS, and there are social stigmas as well.
Lisa Harney
4 Sep 08 at 1:27 pm
What Lisa and Squigglefish said.
But yno what else? I don’t give a FLYING FUCK what the so-called “cause(s)” of gender variance are. So many people hang their hats on finding a biological basis for gender variance, without thinking about the ramifications. I tend to think that there *may* be some biological basis, but at this point I DON’T FUCKING CARE.
Cos what is important is this – People, every person, cis, trans, whatever have the right to control their bodies – what they do to them or with them, what they put into them or on them. and every person has the right to define themselves and their identities; I have a right to identify as Jewish, female, woman, feminine, white, middle-class, geek, queer, trans, autosexual, etc, etc.
We are talking about physical, mental, and emotional autonomy here, people! This is, to me, the most fundamental human right there is, cos as soon as we take away even one piece of that autonomy from someone, we are reinforcing kyriarchy.
What it comes down to is, and why I wrote the fucking post about in the first place is: I AM FUCKING SICK AND TIRED OF HAVING TO FUCKING JUSTIFY MY BODILY AUTONOMY AND IDENTITIES TO EVERY FUCKING DAMNED RANDOM “FEMINIST” AND HBS WOMAN AND CIS PERSON IN EXISTENCE.
Sarah, will you just STOP it already? You are doing exactly what kyriarchists want – splitting the community into pieces and setting them against each other and establishing more hierarchies.
Jeezus, what a way to bring down a day that was looking to be ok.
GallingGalla
4 Sep 08 at 1:47 pm
Please give the full quote, or at least a URL to the original article. Please have a look at it, and make your own judgement about whether the remark was carefully pruned to take it out of context. I would appreciate a link inserted in the original article.
I would like things to be nice, simple and binary. Us and Them. Good and Evil. Black and White. Male and Female. The thing is, they’re not, and I’m neither stupid enough, nor bigoted enough, to believe they are. I would also like to believe that all on my side of politics are pure, spotless, unselfish and correct, and the opposition is incorrect, selfish, muddle-headed and wrong. But again, I’m not stupid enough to believe that, either.
Forget my editorialising in this comment, it can be seen as mere self-serving justification. Please just read the original article for yourself.
http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2008/06/hbs.html
Zoe Brain
4 Sep 08 at 11:33 pm
@Squiggelfish
There are a view more studies than the two you cited. With living people by the way.
@Lisa
Those are actually comments I read. And I said loud and clear that I don’t interpret those studies the same way HBS people do.
@Both
Maybe its different in the US, but there is a much greater acceptance of IS that TG over here in Europe. Even medical care is easier if you get the slightes medical clue of beeing intersexed.
@Galling G
My intend is not to divide? I see your point, and its a good one.
@all
Its very obvious how emotions get high on that physical cause thing. Why is that?
Bad Hair Days
5 Sep 08 at 1:44 am
Okay, that wasn’t clear to me, and rereading still not clear. Thank you for clarification.
Emotions get high on physical cause because of the way physical cause is being used to say “these trans people are legitimate and those trans people are perverts,” even though the idea that HBS/transsexualism has a biological cause, and anyone who doesn’t fit into the HBS definition being shifted to transgender, with transgender being defined as not physical…just because.
So, really, it’s not so much the physical cause as the way that physical cause is used divisively and to deny the validity of many people’s identities.
Lisa Harney
5 Sep 08 at 2:46 am
And that is exactly what I said in my first post. Don’t judge the scientific studies by a view wierdos who twist them to draw conclusions from than that makes them better. There is enough evidence that the WHOLE TG spectrum (hm, the whole LGBT spectrum) is very much based on the fetal brain development. HBS People are cherrypicking.
Bad Hair Days
5 Sep 08 at 3:03 am
Zoe, apologies for your comment getting stuck in the spam trap.
I’ll poke GG about linking your post.
Lisa Harney
5 Sep 08 at 3:23 am
@Zoe and Lisa: the pokee has modified the post as requested.
@Zoe: Even with the surrounding text, this statement still feels to me like “this binary is what i’d really like, but I’ll just have to accept that it can’t be.” Please tell me where I am going astray with this?
gallinggalla
5 Sep 08 at 4:01 am
@Zoe: and ok i think that i just magnified the hurt with that most recent comment.
yes, in my rage i misinterpreted your article and wound up misrepresenting it, i know the damage is done, but i offer my apologies nevertheless.
gallinggalla
5 Sep 08 at 4:46 am
“There is enough evidence that the WHOLE TG spectrum (hm, the whole LGBT spectrum) is very much based on the fetal brain development.”
Dear people, please stop doing science wrong, thanks, Squigglefish.
The evidence is not ‘enough’ to say that it is ‘based on’ foetal brain development. The evidence only suggests that there /may/ be a relation between brain structure and transgenderism, and that more research is needed.
To say otherwise is to clearly not get science at all. Critically read the studies, and this is all quite clear.
Squigglefish
5 Sep 08 at 5:01 am
“There are a view more studies than the two you cited. With living people by the way.”
And yes, there are more studies, but little of any note or quality – that is why those ones get talked about the most. Perhaps the only other well-known study would be on finger-lengths, on which there was a recent one by Zucker’s lot. However finger lengths are very poor markers for hormonal conditions within the womb.
And above all else, this line in a post that Zoe wrote says it all: “self-advertising publicity-seeking “TG Pride” paraphiliacs and fetishists”. Whilst she attempts to recover to some extent, I found much of the messages put forward within that self-quoted post to be contradictory and hard to understand. From an outsider’s point of view, it seems offensive, but I suspect the HBS lot disagree just as much with it.
Intersex is not the magical saviour, people, and you don’t need it for your identity to be validated. I feel sorry for those who do.
Squigglefish
5 Sep 08 at 5:09 am
Sqigglefish
With a 100% quote of relations by complete different tests (the HBC, the ones using Radiology and stimulation)?
Then the studies showing what could cause that and mesures the statistical outcome?
The fact that never any other cause could be proofed in a similar way and the that no psychological treatment brings ease.
One has to plug the fingers into the ears and say “nananana” to tell that unproven evidence.
But enaugh people are ready to consider the Baley theorem (even the speach used there is used in the only american study). Which brings me to another point. For a long time all that studies only came from europe. Was it kind of a scientific taboo in the USA?
Is this the same taboo, what brings you to call that studies untelling?
Bad Hair Days
5 Sep 08 at 5:21 am
I’m afraid I can’t make much sense of your comment, could you please provide references to studies so that I have at least something to work on?
I can assure you, all the ones regarding studies of brain structure itself have been done on too small sample sizes for there to be any ‘statistical significance’.
As for how for TG/TS people only gain proper relief through following their internal genders, that is true, but it doesn’t automatically point to naturally formed brain structures being the cause, and similarly not automatically to foetal brain development. The mind is a far more complex and fluid thing than that, and given that there appears to be evolutionary links to queer aspects, and the nature of how these things appear, function, and aid a group, some environmental may well be involved.
When exactly did I plug my ears? When? Please provide a quote from something I have written that says something to the effect of “I’m not listening”. I am trained in science, a world of not only black or white, but the ever mutable grey, the weighing of evidence. Calling evidence lacking is not the same as saying it is bunk, unless of course there exists evidence to the contrary (which in this case, there is not a strong body of evidence either way).
What calls me call these studies inconclusive is the content of the studies. Go learn how science is performed, what ‘statistical significance’ actually means and requires, the concept of appropriate sample sizes, and so on.
Although I have ethical issues with these studies (and seriously, there is not a ‘taboo’ against studying the origin of queers, it is frankly demanded by some in an attempt to rid the world of us or to pity us properly), I am a competent enough woman of science to be curious about their research (as I am curious, despite my concerns, and everyone involved in science should have a healthy curiosity), and to judge research on its merits alone (or rather, the merits of the research with respect to other research in that field), rather than upon my personal hopes and beliefs.
Squigglefish
5 Sep 08 at 5:33 am
gg – thanks for adding the link – that’s more important than the exact words.
My intent, which I may not have conveyed adequately, was not to imply that such a nice neat binary existed. It emphatically does not. Those who do not fit the overly stereotyped definition of womanhood proposed by some – indeed many – HBS fanatics are emphatically not “a variety of self-advertising publicity-seeking “TG Pride” paraphiliacs and fetishists.”
Before I started my transition, one thing that really threw me was the public and ignorant perception of transsexuals, one I shared. I thought that it was mandatory to be ultra-feminine, an entertainer, beautician, or hair-stylist. And attracted to men too. About as far from a frumpy, geeky engineer with zero clothes sense as could possibly be.
As for cross-dressing, I thought that was just guys who dress in female attire for a thrill. I never cross-dressed myself, so how could I be trans* in any sense of the word?
When I discovered Lynn Conway’s site, it was a revelation. Yes, Geek Girls could be trans* too. Psychologically, I was no different from others who follow the “standard transsexual narrative”. Women, still nothing to do with cross-dressers, drag queens and the like. This made me feel comfortable, not to be someone “on the fringe” like them.
Later, I did some more study. And I found that the HBS theory of biological cause meant there could be no clear divide, only shades of grey. Much as I would have liked to be apart from flamboyant and extremely extroverted people who were totally unlike me, there was no clear divide, no “us” and “them” after all.
And in mixing with such people, including “men in dresses” and “gender outlaws” whose views are completely different from mine, I became educated about one simple fact, that should have been obvious to anyone with two working neurons. That they were and are human beings, deserving of equal human rights. Ok, they’re different. Very much so. Their lifestyle is something I am as uncomfortable with as they would be with mine. But so what? My own situation would no doubt be seen as just as weird, or even more so, to many. How could I claim to be “better”, “more genuine”, “more trans than thou”? That wasn’t just contrary to reality, it was a morally indefensible position too, no matter how comforting it would have been to me.
I’ll still never be seen in a GLBT Pride march. It’s not my style. I don’t, I can’t, pretend that my style is “better” than anyone else’s though. Just different. And not nearly as different as I might like.
I guess it’s what diversity is all about. the right not to be homogenous, or stuck in someone else’s definitional box. The right to be ourselves, no matter how unfashionable that may be.
I may be, I am, somewhat priggish, conventional, staid. Bigoted too. But hateful? I hope not. Just me. Still learning to discard some of my prejudices too.
Zoe Brain
5 Sep 08 at 6:16 am
Thank you, Zoe! :)
I think your message has came across a lot more clearly in your above comment than it did in your original post, and actually seems positive and supportive now! :)
The degree of difference you see between yourself and similar and other parts of the TG spectrum is perhaps not to my tastes, but I think it is more clearly intended harmlessly, and as a personal opinion (and perhaps a normal reaction only 3 years in, I know I of the exact same opinion then myself).
Squigglefish
5 Sep 08 at 6:31 am
Bad Hair Days: (1) Samples of < 100 people are not statistically significant. (2) Corellation does not equal causation; there may be *other factors* that result in both different brain structure and different-than-expected gender identities and hence these two factors, tho related to the actual cause, are not related to each other. The studies make no attempt to distinguish this, and the sample sizes are too small anyway to come to any valid conclusions. (3) did you even BOTHER to read my comment @ 4 sept 1:47 pm? yno, the one that contains the words “I don’t give a FLYING FUCK what the so-called “cause(s)” of gender variance are”?
Science is not going to save us, BHD. society allowing us to fully own and control our own bodies WILL. Get that through your head.
And this is the last comment I will be writing to you, BHD, cos i’m getting sick of this.
GallingGalla
5 Sep 08 at 7:00 am
@Squiggelfish
Sorry I got a bit emotionally. Since the links to the certain studies are all on Zoës page I linked and you acted like you already read that I did not think to point that out again. I will make a longer post in a few hours where I point each out and try to show you why the number of samples is actually enough.
Bad Hair Days
5 Sep 08 at 7:10 am
Sarah: Unless you are about to talk about other studies, please don’t make a fool of yourself by pretending that the studies I questioned in particular have large enough sample sizes to be statistically significant results.
Because believe me, it is highly agreed that those studies have too small sample sizes (and in the case of the brain symmetry study, too poor a selection of samples) for the claim you made to be justified by them.
There is no need to try and prove your position – I am not, from a scientific point of view, against it as a hypothesis. There is evidence which suggests that as a hypothesis, it might have some value that is worth exploring further. As far as science things go, that is practically a glowing endorsement :P
Squigglefish
5 Sep 08 at 7:35 am
gg – regarding hurt – your post caused me to re-examine my own views, and give some more thought to my own bigotry. Any hurt you caused was minor, and worth it if it made me get off my duff and think about what I said, and why I said it.
You have my respect, and admiration too. Of course your apology is accepted, I’m not sure that your criticism of my words was entirely unjustifed either. Squigglefish has a point, though I wish she’d read the whole article.
Please don’t sweat it, if that’s the worst mistake you ever make, you’ll be doing far better than me! I agree with the entire tenor of your article too.
Zoe Brain
5 Sep 08 at 7:52 am
All’s good, Zoe… :-)
GallingGalla
5 Sep 08 at 9:44 am
If fact I wanted to add a view other studies. Didn’t even know Zucker made something about index and ring fingers (and I wouldn’t trust any scientific work from Zucker, either), but others did that too.
http://www.idw-online.de/pages/de/news228729
(with over 100 participating ts)
Thats just a hint, not an evidence. I agree on that.
I will not reconsider the two often cited studys, as you advised me
In the following study, only 36 people participated 12 out of them being transsexual
http://www.idw-online.de/pages/de/news228729
Brainparts where controlled via brainscan while participants where sexually stimulated by visual stimuli.
100% of the transsexuals participating should reaction typical brainmorphologie to their claimed (in that case always female) sex regardles of sexual orientation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18056697?dopt=Abstract
this study did a similar thing (again with 12 TS participating)
The stimulation this time came via smells.
Add that up with the numbers of participants in the other studies you know and tell me honestly about the odds that every study finds a 100% correlance between phyical brainstructur and claimed sex.
When you say only studies with 100 People count, did you consider that the majority of this studies where made in countries with much less the the population, the US has?
Is Zoës condition unproven, because there arent enaugh people in the world to get a control group of hundret?
And now for the part where the TG (and not only the TS) part comes into play
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/jun/16/neuroscience.psychology
Read it for yourself.
And again on the hints. There are the DES children, there are intersex people with the same “symptoms” we have
And again, Zoë has some good reasoning in articles taking a complete other approach:
for examples this one: http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2006/01/brain-intersex.html
But if you don’t want to hear (didn’t I say you make an impression of plugging your ears) there shourly is no need to take a calulater to calculate the odds.
@GallingGalla
Two points.
It is absout possible that someone other stears my car via RC, when I drive. Well there is the reaction when I use the gas or the break, but theres no proven correlation between that and the reaction.
Secondly I still don’t get how I upset you. Since you don’t want to talk to me anymore, maybe someone other points that out for me. Its entirely possible that I make an apology, when pointed to it.
I already agreed, that I see your point and its a good one.
Now to the “it won’t be a magic wand” No it won’t. But it would be a good start to change something. Getting us out of ICD and DSM because the placement in psychological orders would be prooven wrong would be a good starting point from there on. And as I told you access to medical care would be a lot easier here in the german speakung, where the international standarts of care are ignored, and the consequences still leading in two years of psychological treatment before medicine even comes in to play. One year is psychotherapie and the next ist real life test (without hormons).
While it might me a good world where I would want to live, where the cause is unimportent to get respect, its not the world we live in.
Sarah
5 Sep 08 at 11:10 am
“Now to the “it won’t be a magic wand” No it won’t. But it would be a good start to change something.”
No, it wouldn’t be a good start. It doesn’t matter if the “cause” is physical, psychological, environmental, a combination of all of the above, or other factors we are totally unaware of. Once there is a “cause” there is a push for a “cure,” and the full pathologising force of the medical community is brought to bear on real people – many of whom have no desire to be “cured” because they aren’t “sick,” they just want some human rights like everyone else. And that is charitably ignoring the fact that trans* folks comprise a spectrum of experiences, and do not fit into the tidy little boxes science likes to construct to constrain the variety of human experience.
Science is not your friend. I enter the entirety of the “ex gay” movement as exhibits A through Z.
silver
5 Sep 08 at 12:59 pm
Ex gay Movement is not scientific. There is a known cure for transgendered people – helping them in their needs.
Actually when TG is labelled psychological (what it is now) it is still a scientific cause.
I actually know a lot of examples when people get to understand our position better, when there is a know biological cause. Its easier to unterstand “Female or parly female brain in a mans body” and “Male or partly males brain in a womans body.” for a cis person than the complex word Gender Identity.
Sarah
5 Sep 08 at 1:13 pm
“Getting us out of ICD and DSM because the placement in psychological orders would be prooven wrong would be a good starting point from there on.”
Plenty of “mental disorders” have biological causes; from a different mix of chemicals in the brain to structural differences. Depression for instance, is chemical differences that, if they are there for long enough, will change the structure of the brain.
Proving a biological cause, even one present from birth, would not necessarily remove trans*ism from the DSM.
Moreover, as any disability or IS rights advocate knows, having a physical cause will not stop them from: not taking us seriously, refusing hormones/surgeries, trying to “cure” us, forcing “treatment”, etc. It would also not give us any rights or respect that we don’t already have.
drakyn
5 Sep 08 at 1:29 pm
Well I can only speak for german and swiss legislation, but that is largely discriminating AND based on the “mentally ill” standpoint of so called experts. I wonder if there is a cultural diference there too. For example it is still not allowed in switzerland to recieve medical care for TG under 25. It is easy for IS to get treatment.
Sarah
5 Sep 08 at 1:50 pm
Is the problem there that trans isn’t seen as IS, or is the problem there that people are fucking prejudiced against trans people and continue to throw up barriers and hoops because they don’t think we should be trusted to make decisions about our own bodies?
I would’ve killed myself under that law. :(
Lisa Harney
5 Sep 08 at 2:36 pm
There is a known cure for transgendered people – helping them in their needs.
This is curebie speak. i wonder if Sarah / BHD wants to “cure” autism, too. Hey, maybe she can try to “cure” me of both!
P.S. to other readers (cos i know sarah won’t bother trying to understand) – i take hormones and am considering surgery, not cos there’s anything to “cure” – there’s nothing wrong with me – but cos i am doing a home-improvement project to make my body a better place to live.
gallinggalla
5 Sep 08 at 3:12 pm
GG, Sarah’s saying (clumsily, possibly) that the cure for being trans is to give us what we need to transition. Which is true, even though it’s not really a cure.
She’s not trying to use curebie talk, I don’t think.
Lisa Harney
5 Sep 08 at 3:18 pm
For that matter, Sarah, “cure” is really problematic language in English, as GG points out. It means to “end the condition,” and is used to talk about turning transsexual people into cissexual people (that is, no desire to change sex). When GG mentions “curebies” she talks about people who want to find a way to “cure” autism, which would render autistic people into entirely different people, or is a way of saying that the people who are autistic now should not exist.
I know that’s not what you meant, but for both trans people and autistic people, “cure” is a loaded word.
Lisa Harney
5 Sep 08 at 3:59 pm
I’m a bit of a loose cannon. I’m after the facts, regardless of whether they benefit us or not. A bit like Bailey in that regard, or rather, what Bailey *says* he does.
I’ve often been accused of trying to “justify” transsexuality, and my own condition. I’ve also been accused of playing into the hands of eugenecists and others who would use a proven congenital causality to oppress us. A bit of a no-win there.
That’s as may be. Both are separate issues to the science, which is my prime concern. I do however work on the human rights problem, but see it as a different issue, entirely divorced from causality. In that regard, I’m totally different from Bailey, and consider his publications reckless and irresponsible. His science is junk too, but again, a separate issue.
I don’t subscribe to the extreme post-modernist doctrine of their being no external truth, and any idea’s worth being judged purely on how well it fits one’s pre-conceived agenda. I prefer to find out the facts, and use them as context, regardless of how convenient or inconvenient they may be in the quest for justice and basic humanity. That also means that I must be prepared to modify my own ideas as new data comes in, rather than ignoring things that don’t fit my pre-conceived notions. I reserve the right to change my mind to better fit our best guess as to Reality, and even change back again as the guess gets refined.
At this point, I feel there is so much data, each not enough in itself for proof, or even anything better than “strong suggestion”, but in aggregate fitting a pattern, while the contrary hypothesis of no biological cause is not just un-evidenced speculation, but is actually disproven.
What this means is that we should be prepared for a biological causation to be accepted without demur some time in the next 10-20 years. And cast our plans against the eugenicists etc accordingly. It will happen whether we like it or not.
Zoe Brain
5 Sep 08 at 5:44 pm
The study regarding smell response is interesting, however I would seriously question the assertion that 12 people + 12 controls + 22 virtual controls is an appropriate sample set to draw definitive conclusions. I couldn’t find appropriately clear information on error ranges and standard deviation (especially with respect to the general populace) within the paper, which also makes me more sceptical. It must be remembered, of course, that the trans people used, while they claim they had never had hormones (note the traditional dislike of the medical profession to self-medication, which complicates this), were on average 32 years old, and so this study can only reflect on the brain structure of a 32 year old person, not on foetal development (and living with being trans is psychologically stressful, and so could effect brain structure). Also, no detail at all has been given regarding the selection of the control group, which as I have already mentioned was really too small for this type of study (since 22 were taken from existing papers, only 12 of them were really controls in this study, and given the level of error and natural difference, I find the idea of a small control being acceptable an unlikely one). It does show more promise than many other studies, however, but it also makes invisible half of trans sexuality.
As for some of the other links, unfortunately my german isn’t up to anything, and I’d prefer links to papers, not press releases.
It may not have occurred to you, but physiology and science knows no national borders, and european countries do not have such low populations as to make getting 100+ controls difficult, or even samples (consider the fact that the UK NHS cites the incidence of GID as 1 in 4000). I really don’t know what you were intending to say by that – that bad science should be let off and allowed to be poor yet accepted because it comes from a smaller country? o.O
As for Zoe herself, I don’t know enough about her to know if she even has a condition aside from wanting to be IS. Rare conditions are provable, but only with a large enough control size, and a big enough difference from the mean.
On a cursory scan, it seems you also posit that some calculations by zoe somehow lend weight. But in all of this you are missing the point here! All zoe’s calculations do is say that this hypothesis has potential merit and should be investigated! Which is exactly what I think!
To prove the placement in psychological disorders wrong, there needs to be some other, non-psychological, test in place. That’s how medicine works. As it stands, the evidence is not strong enough to support this (especially not with respect to trans people of certain sexualities), and there is no evidence that actually successfully ‘treated’ trans people would /all/ fall under this evidence. If it is removed, and brain scans introduced, what do you think the result would be if you are an outlier, someone who is TS, but who has a rare brain structure? Under current methods – no problem. I doubt if under “brain scan or gtfo” they would be as forgiving. Believe that access to medical assistance would be easier as IS is also outright wishful thinking with no evidence to back that up. I suspect doctors are like the man on the street – they don’t care if it’s in the brain or not, only that (for trans women) it’s unnaturally feminine and ‘men’ shouldn’t act like that.
If you want change, don’t wish upon a star that is still far off. Campaign now, based on your current situation, don’t hope for a magical fix.
Silver is also spot on here.
And seriously, if you think that “oh, they have a woman’s brain” will make any difference to the bigots and transphobes, that people won’t say crap like “but you’re really a man/woman”, that friends will stop being idiots and start using the correct pronouns… you are deluded. No other word for it. Cis people don’t /care/.
I think Lisa is right in suggesting that the problem is not that TS isn’t viewed as being an IS condition, but rather the prejudice against TS/TG is so damn strong.
Squigglefish
5 Sep 08 at 5:57 pm
Thank you again, zoe! that was a good comment, and given that some of your own musings on the matter have been dragged in as ‘evidence’, I’m glad you posted clearly your view. It doesn’t seem too far off my own, actually.
You’re right, the contrary hypothesis has been disproven, and for quite some time. I know in my case that I almost certainly inherited it, and I believe there is evidence there based around non-identical twins (unfortunately, Bailey/zucker’s lot have been involved in some).
I like the implication you make at the end, almost that although we may have differing views on the research, at some point enough will come for at least the press (and hence right wing crazies) to run with it and head down that dangerous path of “proof”, and so we should prepare for that eventuality no matter what. :)
Squigglefish
5 Sep 08 at 6:03 pm
it’s … uhmm … interesting how the discussion has moved from the subject of the OP, to a bunch of trans* folk debating the same thing that cis feminists debate about, the whole “nature / nurture” thing, which is really about analysing “them” and “why they are that way”. which i was trying in my blundering way to steer us away from in my comment @ September 4, 2008 at 1:47 pm
i feel like we are doing cis feminist’s (dirty?) work for them. Maybe that’s harsh, but yeah.
tho, i do agree with Zoe that we should expect that a cause will be found / pulled out of thin air soon and we should get ready NOW for “make sure your baby isn’t a tranny (or gay or autistic or freckled or wev), get that amniocentesis now!! … oh noez, “it’s” both tranny and autie, abort!! abort!!” and figure out how to counter that (pls note that i am pro-choice, but that stance has to take into account the intersection with disability, i’ve even read some pro-forced-birth people saying that now that a “gay gene” has been found, it’d be OKAY and maybe even RECOMMENDED to abort *that* fetus to avoid being overrun by Teh Homos)
gallinggalla
5 Sep 08 at 9:24 pm
@galinggalla
You really have a talent to missinterpret me,
But here comes my appology: Sorry for my less than perfect english, which might have to do a lot with sending unwanted messages out (the “cure” thing is an example)
@squiqqelfish
Sorry for the german links, ask Zoë for english articles about them. If not all she has a lot. By the way its terribly hard to send a paper document over a blog comment, but I’m shure you can order them (even online).
@all
It changed a lot, when homosexuality was taken out of the DMC – and in the wider public that is.
Prejudice against LGB and T is by far not that strong in countries like germany, austria and switzerland as it is in USA, wich might give me another perspective on what the greatest needs are. For example I never heard of radical feminism in the german speaking room, exgays (espacially movements) and HBS is unheard of. Even If i am quite carefull when dating man over here there is no known hate crime on a tg woman I heard of. And I never had issues with using toilettes or changing rooms although I don’t think I have a perfect passing.
Sarah
6 Sep 08 at 1:52 am
@gallinggalla
>which i was trying in my blunderung way to steer us away from my comment @ September 5, 2008 at 1:47
which was
>I don’t give a FLYING FUK what the so-calles “cause(s9″ of gender variance are. So many people hang their hats on finding a biological basis for gender variance, without thinking about the ramifications. I thend to think that tere *may* be some biological basis, but at this point I DON’T FUCKING CARE
There was a lot of I in that and I thought its your opinion, which I told I can perfectly understand.
When I first posted I wanted to make the point that you should not mix up the scientific research with the bigotry of HBS people and it took a lot of posts to really seperate the two issues. And like I predicted there came arguments about why people reject it wich I didn’t heard the first time, but Lisa blamed me for:
Me
>> TG reject it cause they fear, they may not fit in, would be abducted when it can be found early enaugh and some other cases
Lisa
> No, that’s not a cool assertion to make. You’re claiming to know why people think and what ther think. You’re demonizing people vaguele difened as “transgender” for reasens you can’t even possibly know.
Well I hear them over and over and again here.
From my point of view i would be perfectly happy with the discussion returning to the original posts topic, I made my points on this subtopics and heard good answers which gave me a lot food for thought, and I want to thank you all.
Sarah
Sarh
Sarah
6 Sep 08 at 2:23 am
I blamed you for it? You posted:
You said later that you were quoting, but that is not at all clear. It looks like you making a statement.
What reasons do you hear?
Incidentally, I saw a statement on your blog that kind of looked like you were saying that we (here) are uncomfortable with the idea of biology – and not the mind/soul – affecting identity.
Is that accurate? Is that what you’re getting from the comments?
Lisa Harney
6 Sep 08 at 11:28 am
Hate for trans people in the US is pretty high, I will admit it, but
this is extremely harsh and damaging to trans people, and there’s nothing like it in the US.
So I don’t think it’s fair to try to rank these things – different places sometimes have different ways to oppress.
Lisa Harney
6 Sep 08 at 11:30 am
Somehow I can’t copy so I just will anwswer
yes in my blog I asekd the question: Why all that unsympathy for biology cases.
And cause so many responses lead finally to more emotional than logical reasons (for example the quetion about abortion of known to be TG childs) questions can easily debunced by acutal realtiy, why is that.
And since my Blog has not nearly the same possibilitty of comments I’m happy to repeat that … now my english lefts me again… my thought I had what might be the real cause behind this anger might be another:
That the fear is, that our body is more important to our identity than that what we call our soul.
For all the critics of me I labeled that a possibility in and I do it again here, but I’m happy to have it disussed – while I’m at the sametime unhappy for Gallinggala that it is not over with MYsubthread
To your last post Lisa both of the labelded is truth. So I have some political goals that targets primary the medial scene and not the broader acceptance of TG people- so I’m priviledged in kind of acceptance put put down on the other side by the medical community for beiing mental. Thats why the theme is such a high priority for my. I can understand that in other countries like US and preveous commonwealth countrys, there are other. AND AGAIN I’d love to live in a world where personal identity is prefered over visible. But I know thats not the case and I cheer my fellow swiss citizens to do so well with it anyway. Much like that dreamworld some emigen. Whan’t to come over here by the way? We (Swiss) is in need of a lot of good educated people, and although trans oder beeing female may be some of a turn down it wont be a never.
I wanted to state the same over at mAndreas Blog but than thought that anyone who has the mindset that any women braking the glass ceyling has slept her way up is not really welcome. We want people good at their work and it is honord here, not ones, that demand previlidge of being oppressed otherwhere and are quite hatefull.
Well since I thought the last would be me last post (on the topic), this got longer that I wished. Count me to the priviliedged people. While I am not priviledged when it comes to medical treatment (i would not have it, if I would not take it in my own hand) living in switzerland makes me jobwise, and prejudicevice priviledged.
Sarah
6 Sep 08 at 1:07 pm
Oh my theres no edit function but so many errors. At least I like to say, I still would not get medical treatment over here, after trying to change my physical sex over more than a decade, if I would not take it in my own hands (and spent the money)
Sarah
6 Sep 08 at 1:16 pm
So many blogs lack edit functions.
Medical treatment is a huge barrier for trans people in a lot of places. I hear a new horror story about NHS in England on a daily basis. I seriously consider Switzerland’s policy to be hugely regressive because I think the impetus should be toward earlier treatment – give trans kids the chance to delay puberty and start treatment in their teens so they can live emotionally healthier lives, not force them to wait until they’re well past the age of every kind of consent (drinking, driving, sex, you name it) before trusting them enough to make decisions about their own bodies. I know I’m repeating myself and not aiming any of this at you, and I realize you’re not supporting it.
And the US seriously needs to improve social acceptance. Not just the US, but Canada, the UK, Australia…lots of places.
I’m not trying to say Switzerland is hellcountry for trans people, either, I’m just very grateful I didn’t turn 18 there – but my state of mind at 17 was almost intolerable for me to live with, and going on like that for another 7 years would’ve probably meant a suicide attempt on my part.
Talking to m Andrea is a waste of time.
Anyway, the thing about body defining identity – I don’t really have a problem with it. I mentioned in this thread that psychological doesn’t mean not biological because I don’t believe in the Cartesian mind/body duality. So much of what makes our identities is not just what we feel, but how we’re seen – skin color (race), sex, height, weight, and so on, all affect how we see ourselves and how other people see us. I have no problem with the idea that there’s a biological cause.
In fact, I do think there is a biological cause, just as I don’t think the evidence of that cause is conclusive. That is, I don’t think we’ve found the cause of transsexualism, just some of the side effects of being transsexual. I don’t think that’s conclusive of a biological cause, but I think finding one is pretty likely.
And I think that if there is a biological cause, that may very well see an improvement across the board in medical care – at least in some countries. I’m not sure if that means it has to be intersex, or it could be another category, especially since transness has multiple expressions of its own beyond those who full transition to male or female.
But anyway, I’m not (and I don’t think others are) so much resisting the idea of a biological cause as not caring, or not seeing the evidence as being conclusive.
I will admit that one of my concerns is the possibility of eugenic abortions aganst trans children, but there’s no guarantee it could be tested for in the womb.
And I agree that we shouldn’t mix up the HBS bigotry with the research – although I think the HBS people’s desire to prove their case leads them to overstate the strength of the research done so far.,
And thanks for coming back to answer. :)
Lisa Harney
6 Sep 08 at 6:55 pm
A comment I made over a Pam’s House Blend:
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showComment.do?commentId=78918
—
We’ve also not found a pill to cure left-handedness, another neurological “abnormality”. Or congenital blindness for that matter, and that would probably be easier.
The evidence is that it’s not a neurotransmitter problem, but a structural one, like many other intersex conditions. The lymbic system develops along atypical lines, compared to the usual pattern that the rest of the body follows.
Various means of trying to cure transsexuality have been tried, from systematic and prolonged torture, through cutting out parts of the brain, as well as the usual ECT and psychotropic drugs. It’s the 100% failure rate of the “Mengele” methods that led people to believe in the 80′s that a biological cause was likely. It wasn’t until the late 90′s that autopsies showed cross-gendered brain structures, and not until the naughties that we could see the cross-gendered neural functions in live patients using fMRT.
In order to prevent – or induce – transsexuality, we’d need a far better understanding of neural development in the womb between weeks 8-14. We’d need to know the mechanism by which hormones and gene sequences create the pattern that the lymbic system development follows later. Once the lymbic system – which controls emotional response and body image – is pre-programmed to develop in a particular way, then gender identity will follow, by the observation/comparison schema in childhood as described by Diamond et al. Any intervention after the first trimester cannot be curative.
Pending such a radical increase in knowledge, the best we can do is to align body with brain, as best we can. That has a success rate in curing all symptoms of better than 80%, and 98% seems to be the best estimate.
—
Note that this is a “best guess” rather than an “absolutely proven”. But it’s the only pattern that can account for all the evidence so far, in particular the gender variance of 46xy children exposed to DES in the first trimester.
I agree with Lisa’s post above in just about every respect too. I just wonder how much evidence has to be gathered before we can state “absolutely proven”. The Australian Family Court judged a biological cause proven “on the balance of probabilities” as far back as 2003, after an in-depth examination of the science by expert witnesses.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/DeakinLRev/2004/22.html#Heading437
Since then, more confirmatory evidence has come in, and zero that would tend to cast doubt on that conclusion. It may be that the legal situation here in Australia – that the courts have ruled that TS is probably a form of IS – biases my opinions of the scientific evidence. Not that the court’s conclusion has had any effect whatsoever outside the court room, the Religious Right keeps on saying the same old same old, the psych establishment still talks about Ids and Superegos, and the politicians don’t want to get involved in anything so icky.
Other critiques of my own conclusions…I may be giving the Diamond schema of gender formation too much weight, as it so exactly fits my own personal experience. It may not be generally applicable.
There is also far, far less good data on the guys – FtoMs. We really need far more in that area.
Some clarifications:
@Squigglefish
September 4, 2008 at 1:22 pm
I ignored the data about finger length, as although it’s famous, it’s too fuzzy, the overlaps between M and F too great. Same with gross brain size, though the lobe differential is more clear-cut. It’s the fMRI scan of activity that’s of greatest interest to me, as there the differentials are distinct. I plead guilty to “leaping on” to the latter, more of a tentative step on the former.
September 5, 2008 at 5:57 pm
1985 – diagnosis at Canberra Fertility Clinic – Undervirilised fertile male.
2005 – diagnosis by Prof Alfred Steinbeck – Severe androgenisation of a non-pregnant woman
In 1985 I looked male. Same up until May 2005. By July 2005 I looked female – like a Butch Dyke anyway.
See http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2006/05/annus-mirabilis.html
September 5, 2008 at 6:31 am
Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Yes, it has only been 3 years and 5 months since my life was turned upside down. 3 years and 6 months ago, transition was something totally off my radar, I considered flying to the moon more likely. Literally. I’m still learning.
Zoe Brain
6 Sep 08 at 9:15 pm
I just want to say, I have no fracking idea why the spambot loves to eat your posts, Zoe. Apologies for that happening again.
Lisa Harney
7 Sep 08 at 12:04 am
No worries, Lisa. The standard wordpress spam detector assumes anything with 3 or more URLs in (plus possibly keywords such as “woman”) is spam. It’s usually right too. I should have split my post so as not to trigger it, my fault.
As regards being Intersexed – this is a pragmatic diagnosis, rather than a clear “oh, you have X syndrome” one. I looked male. That changed without medical intervention so I looked female, with endocrine levels within female norms. We can only guess why. It did make me much healthier though, and got rid of a number of distressing skin conditions I’d had since puberty. Not acne, psoriatic eczema. More importantly, my cholesterol levels plummeted from “should have died before age 30″ to “normal”.
A combination of NC-CAH and AIS could account for it, but we’re still guessing. I won’t go into the blood test anomalies, let’s just say I’m distinctly non-standard there.
Zoe Brain
7 Sep 08 at 4:21 pm
Zoe, I have my spam detector set to 8 links – and any spam that still gets past the automatic spam detector (based on known sites or certain word combinations) and has fewer than 8 links, still hits my mod queue at which point I can send it to spam – that’s happen 3-4 times total.
BTW, I really appreciate the way you’re relating your experiences to more typical trans experiences. It’s educational, and if I seemed dismissive of that above, I apologize.
Lisa Harney
7 Sep 08 at 6:09 pm
Lisa, treading on eggshells is not required! I’ll save your kind apology for the first time it’s needed. I took no offense either from you or GallingGalla, you’re both people who I respect immensely. And like too.
Zoe Brain
7 Sep 08 at 7:33 pm
I was worried that I had something invalidating rather than critical.
Anyway, thanks!
Lisa Harney
7 Sep 08 at 9:07 pm
> Medical treatment is a huge barrier for trans people in a log of places
…
> I’m not trying to say Siwitzerland is hellcountry for trans people either
I just read how it is in Israel http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1018616.html
which still is more bad than it is in Switzerland.
Like the communty in Israel, we start to form us to get together health professionals, health insurance people and discuss how treatment can be changed for the better.
By the way. I have some friends who get hormonal treatment before 25 because the medical community does see the insanity and torture in that, but indication for surgery still is bound to be at least 25. Mostly because health insurance might not cover it cause of the 25 rule.
Sarah
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