The Culture of Internet Call Outs
NOTE: If you came here via a link dropped in a discussion critiquing how someone called someone else (perhaps you) out, I’d like to clarify this is an attempt to join a conversation, and not an attempt to lay any ground rules about calling out itself. It is specifically about dealing with abuse, intimidation, and silencing under the guise of calling out, and not meant to be dropped out of the context of related posts into random disagreements on the internet. By all means read it because I love readers, but I don’t want people to walk away with the impression I have solutions beyond “please don’t abuse, silence, and intimidate people under the guise of anti-oppression work.”
Note 2: The comments on this post are not the place to air any grudges. I don’t care how justified you feel you are.
Okay, I want to talk about calling out. Or rather, what happens when calling out goes horribly wrong. I am not the first to say this, and I hope I am not the last.
To me, when I really looked at the process of calling out, I saw it as telling something that something they did or said was harmful. It was a way to deal with oppressive actions that would at least give the person who committed those oppressive actions a graceful way to back off and admit their mistake. Obviously, a lot of people don’t take well to this, get defensive, deny everything, try to make it your fault, accuse you of being oppressive for hearing oppression in their words or seeing it in their actions, but the setup was there specifically to give them room to be a decent human being and give us room to assert ourselves as fully human and worthy of respect.
Often, the call out may not even actually be about the person you’re calling out – after all, they may not show any sign of really caring that they caused harm and are almost certain to flail defensively rather than respond constructively. It may instead be for others’ benefit, to see that the oppressive action didn’t go unnoticed and that at least someone disapproved.
In both cases, it may open a dialogue with the person you called out or someone else, and productive conversation could grow from that point forward. What it was never meant to be was a means of reproducing oppressive tactics.
And by that I mean, silencing, intimidating, bullying, even outright abuse. It’s no longer a tool for opening dialogues, but for preventing them. It is about establishing a Manichean order where everyone on this side is good and awesome and amazing and everyone on that side is evil and mediocre and annoying. There’s no middle ground, no room for any nuance. No room for dealing with people you know mean well but make mistakes. And every one of us makes mistakes.
And there’s no room, none, for any of us to present ourselves as paragons who are always perfect and proper and never say or do anything busted because as I said the other day, there is no outside. We’re all socialized into white supremacy, male supremacy, cis supremacy, hetero supremacy, economic supremacy, thin supremacy, TAB supremacy. We are all taught that being a person of color, of being a woman, of being of non-binary gender, of being bisexual or gay or lesbian, of being working class, being poor, being fat, having a disability makes people less than. Makes people inferior. Makes people vulnerable. Makes people deserving of the terrible things that happen to them. And we all, every single one of us, have perpetrated these attitudes on someone else, or more likely a lot of other people all at once.
We can sit down all day and tabulate the oppressions that affect us: I am a fat queer white working class (unemployed for over a decade) trans woman with disabilities and I have no college degree. This does not mean I am immune to fatphobia, to homophobia, to classism, to transphobia, to ableism, or to any kind of academic elitism. I have engaged in all of these in some point of my life. They’re not a free pass out of being busted. And they especially do not grant me an ounce of moral authority to call down thundering condemnation from the heavens on someone else who is being busted.
And all of that sounds a bit clinical, a bit theoretical, so let’s also talk about how this behavior hurts us. How it silences us. How it intimidates us. How we start to feel like we can’t talk about certain things or can’t really engage outside of our own blogs and maybe a few friends because someone might have decided – on a Manichean level – that we are bad people and what we have to say is worthless, because we fucked up once, somewhere. Or because we were perceived as fucking up, or someone presented a distorted series of events that made it look like we had not only fucked up, but did so as maliciously as possible and refused to be held accountable for it. I’m not going to name names, but I’m sure many readers can think of examples that have actually happened.
And really, it only takes a small handful to really disrupt a community with this kind of behavior. To engage in a pattern of intimidation and abuse that drives wedges between us and labels some as acceptable and others as enemies. That breaks up potential or actual coalitions and teaches us to distrust one another because we’re not seeing the behavior for what it is, instead treating it as a valid calling out. Called blogswarms on each other. Not even conversations, but what can be – and often is – borderline, if not actual, trolling and again abuse.
And you know, I’m complicit in this. When I saw it happening, I didn’t stop and say anything then. I haven’t stopped and said anything until now. Even while women I love and respect were being raked over the coals for things they had not said and done, I sat it out because of my own anxieties and fears. And while I am not alone in this, I certainly acknowledge my own responsibility in not speaking out against this. I let people get attacked and chased off of my own blog, and it got so bad that at one point I was seriously considering putting an end to Questioning Transphobia. I actually hated checking my comments queue because I dreaded what I would see, but I still didn’t say anything then.
I’ve also participated in these toxic call outs. I’ve backed them up, boosted the signal on them with my blog, got them more attention. I probably originated a few. So I do not say I am blameless or that I am speaking from any position of moral authority. I am saying that I see something that has damaged not just our community (the trans community) but impacted other communities as well, and I think that we really need to rethink how we approach these things.
I am not arguing that people have to be nice, or that anyone needs to hold anyone’s hand, or provide to the injuring party as Delux_Vivens said about what people expect when called out,
Triage, citations, a refreshing beverage, books, articles, a warm blankie, a mixtape…
just so they can feel good about themselves after saying or doing something oppressive. I’m not saying any of these things. I am not talking about tone. But I no longer want to be party to or enable any further silencing, intimidation, or abuse.
Edit: I was ambivalent about linking the other posts on this subject – not because I wanted to take credit for everything I said here, but because I did not want to trigger a blogswarm or create bad blood. But I think that decision was pretty wrongheaded, for plenty of reasons, not the least of which is that I am sick to my stomach of shoving all talk about the problems described in these posts under the carpet. Plus, it’s just a huge fucking breach of etiquette to not give credit. So, here:
s. e. smith: Internet. It’s Time to Talk. I read this months ago, and it triggered a lot of the thoughts I had here. Ou’s post was timely but not disseminated openly, IIRC. I think a lot of us were gun shy at the time, and were trying to avoid triggering any more blogswarms and outright attacks.
Flipfloppingjoy: Untitled. This is much more recent, and talks a bit about the mess that exploded all over Mai’a's posts at Feministe as well as something that happened with an LJ feminism community (ontd_feminism) and BFP’s post about the new Eminem/Rihanna video.
Nix Williams responds to this post.
This conversation needs to be had, we need to talk about this stuff.
And I apologize for not linking properly from the start. I’m still a bit gun shy.
Delurking again not to say anything much, but thank you for this. This has been something which I’ve personally been struggling with a lot of late in learning that calling out isn’t just a blunt weapon to beat people back with and that actual conversations do need to happen. There’s a nuance to it sometimes that I’ve clearly been missing.
Miranda Sparks
31 Aug 10 at 6:34 pm
Yeah, I think…
I wanted to talk about this in a post, but as I said in the community post, I think trans people have been finding our voice and more importantly our anger as a group over the past several years – not to say none of us had voices or anger before, but I think this is more pervasive and more unified. Anyway, I think this anger has been liberating and important, but I also think it’s possible to take some serious missteps by relying on that anger.
Not that this explains everything that’s gone awry with calling out, and of course it’s not only gone awry with trans people, but I think it’s a part.
Lisa Harney
31 Aug 10 at 7:35 pm
Let me just say how grateful I am for QT and its posts like this that are the reason why. Due to discussions that have taken place at this blog I have finally been able to articulate myself in ways I simply was never able to before. That includes articulating my specifically trans anger (or at least slowly beginning to). I have only recently begun commenting and I still feel like I do much better reading and listening rather than speaking up here… but I have cherished this space for a long time now. Thanks to all the editors, contributors and commenters. Excluding of course the transphobic trolls who have managed their way in from time to time.
Jane Laplain
31 Aug 10 at 7:52 pm
I’m grateful for your contributions and presence, Jane.
And I really appreciate you saying this. It means so much to read those words. Thank you.
Lisa Harney
31 Aug 10 at 7:58 pm
“Three things in human life are important. The first is to be kind. The second is to be kind. And the third is to be kind.”
-Henry James
Maybe its a fucked up vestige of my Christian past, but I do believe in being generous, kind and like to give people the chance to genuinely change. Blatant trolls are one thing, over the top nonsense like Ron Gold’s shit is another, but for everything else, I think there’s something to be said for the moral high ground.
Communication is the key to changing people’s minds, and no amount of over the top rudeness will change that.
Amanda in the South Bay
31 Aug 10 at 8:08 pm
‘k, I tend to be a nuker, and oh yeah I’ve crossed that line – there’s a couple incidents that I’m ashamed of, one involving another trans person.
I guess this all ties into the theme of radical love that you’ve picked up from little light / flip-flopping joy / sudy. At an intellectual level, I sorta kinda understand this – that when you come from a position of love, your callouts are focused, directly address the problematic behavior, and (referencing Jay Smooth) keep the what-you-did focus from degenerating into what-you-are focus.
But I don’t understand this at the gut level. And I know why: I’ve been told so many times by so many people in such violent ways that I’m worthless b/c of my gender, that I have lost the capacity for love. I’ve internalized those messages, and if I don’t love myself, how can I others?
I say this because this is a challenge that trans folk face, and I think many of us (and most of us born before about 1985-1990 or so) have internalized that message.
So when a disagreement happens within a trans group, *boom* come out the weapons and the pure-good / pure-evil dichotomy.
Probably this is a primary issue amongst all marginalized people, because that is at the heart of marginalization. You’re not worthy of love or compassion because you’re trans / black / fat / disabled / Muslim / recent immigrant of color / …
And that’s the way kyriarchy wants it. So when I nuke a trans person to the point that they say “ok, time for you to leave my blog, don’t let the door hit you in the ass”, I’ve participated in that. Like you say, there is no outside.
I’ve no hope that I can gain that sense of self-love. It’s been ingrained too long and too harshly to the point that I believe it has become hardwired into my brain.
So why am I so glad to see the trans community find itself and its voice in the last decade? I’m not glad for me. I’m glad for trans and gender-variant youth who now have the hope of finding enough support and validation so that they can find that self-love before it’s too late.
A big part of my activism is, quite frankly, getting the fuck out of the way of people who are on more solid ground internally. I fuck that up sometimes, hence my occasional Manichean nuking.
GallingGalla
31 Aug 10 at 8:14 pm
BTW, Lisa, you’re on quite a roll this last week, and I’ve been immensely enjoying reading you at the top of your form :)
GallingGalla
31 Aug 10 at 8:20 pm
I can’t even begin to describe what it took for me to be able to love myself again.
I’ve been picking up the radical love for a year or so now, it’s just really crystallized for me because of some things I was able to do and learn about myself just in the past couple of months, as well as some events in the blogosphere. And some examples set by some amazing women.
And believe me, I really do understand impulsiveness and anger – I know where you’re coming from, because I’ve been there too.
Thank you for the kind words.
Lisa Harney
31 Aug 10 at 8:26 pm
Amanda,
Yeah, I’m trying to be more kind lately. I think I’m succeeding, although sometimes I worry that I’m being too nice.
Lisa Harney
31 Aug 10 at 8:46 pm
Co-signed on all of this.
THANK YOU!!!!!!
Neo-Prodigy
31 Aug 10 at 9:14 pm
Kind and nice aren’t synonymous, I don’t think. Kind doesn’t preclude callouts when callouts are due.
People who pitch tone argument don’t often use the term “kind”. They use “nice”, “polite”, and other terms that imply deference and “knowing one’s place” a lot
GallingGalla
31 Aug 10 at 9:16 pm
Quite true, GG. What I meant was I worry that I’m being too kind sometimes.
Thank you, Neo!
Lisa Harney
31 Aug 10 at 9:19 pm
GG-
I don’t think what we’re saying is mutually exclusive. I believe in *kindly* giving people enough rope to hang themselves with.
I mean, people are capable of change, and it does no one any good to discount that possibility.
And that in no way means not having a backbone and being too deferential.
Amanda in the South Bay
31 Aug 10 at 9:27 pm
Thanks for this post. ♥ You’re so good at putting this stuff into words in a concise way. And I’m also loving the roll you’re on with these posts.
I have to say that witnessing the call-outs have helped me to be more clear and articulate with my words, but on the other hand, there are times when it becomes so intimidating to even speak up for fear that someone will take issue with my wording and yell at me. When it gets to the point of other marginalized people walking on eggshells to avoid being labeled “bad” it’s definitely damaging to us as a whole.
I can’t say I’ve never used the nuke method when particularly angry, but I do try to save it for when it’s clear the other person is a lost cause and I just need to get my frustration out. There have been times when I’ve witnessed a sort of shark-like pattern of behavior in certain communities, and it’s made me quite uncomfortable because it was a bingo card of bullying. And while it might just be a small few who engage in it, it does have a ripple-effect when the bullying is defended as justified. I think some are too quick to call troll or claim the tone argument without considering their behavior and its effect on all of us, and the tone argument itself has become a silencing tactic when internal opinions differ.
There’s a line between being rightfully angry at oppressive attitudes and engaging in the very same silencing tactics used on us, and the line seems to get blurred at times. I think the anonymity of the internet definitely plays a part in the internal and external clashes I’ve seen (and been burned by), and while taking the high road is difficult when tempers flare, it’s less damaging in the long run. All in all, I’m still trying to figure out when calling out is useful and when it’s just a waste of time that’ll give me anxiety. More often than not, calling out a privileged person ends in failure and frustration, and I can definitely see how that plays a part in the lack of patience people have with problematic stuff, but when it becomes so polarized it causes damaging fractures internally. I don’t think we as a whole diverse community gain anything useful in isolating others over differing opinions, or holding grudges toward people who have said busted stuff in the past, as it just leads to a cycle of sniping and defensiveness that solves nothing.
Galhea
1 Sep 10 at 1:40 am
Having faced abuse face-to-face, I think that it’s more the internet gives you access to more people. I don’t really buy into the “anonymity of the internet gives people license to misbehave.” Back on usenet, most people used their real names and trolling and abuse happened then.
And I’m not saying we have to all be nice all the time, but at least we don’t have to be vicious, you know?
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 1:48 am
And on this post, as on others, I’m not doing more than reiterating what others have already said. I’m standing on the shoulders of giants, so don’t give me all the credit.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 1:55 am
True, though on the internet there’s definitely more opportunity to dogpile someone, and there are times when it can feel like you’re in a game of dodgeball with everyone else trying to hit you. Or maybe that’s just my perception of it, being someone prone to social anxiety who is often too intimidated to speak up. Even with real names behind the words, the fact it happens behind the “safety” of a computer screen definitely makes some people more bold (and meaner) than they would be face to face. Including myself, despite the fact I am usually a lurker due to anxiety.
I’d definitely like to read others’ takes on this topic. I’ve attempted to address it before in my own blog, but my wording usually fails. It’s difficult for me to articulate what bothers me about the calling out stuff without it seeming like I’m trying to use the tone argument, so I’m sorry if I’ve messed up.
Galhea
1 Sep 10 at 2:08 am
Oops, just saw your edit. Off to read those links now.
Galhea
1 Sep 10 at 2:10 am
I think basically, once you’re going for blood or the kill or revenge or the pound of flesh, you’ve probably gone too far. Once you’re trying to intimidate people into shutting up or abusing them? Yeah.
And I know that can seem kind of subjective and it’s really fucking easy to bring up the tone argument to defend against being called out for abusive, silencing, intimidating behavior. All I can say is that I’ll try to do my best to not let that slide around here.
And I agree the internet helps a lot of people (like both of us!) when we have trouble in face to face social situations, but what I mean is the kind of person who takes it to abuse? I don’t know that the internet does more than give them more targets, that’s all I’m trying to say.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 2:18 am
Yes, exactly. More targets for the bullies. And at that point I just huddle in my corner and try to make myself invisible so I don’t get hit. And yeah on the taking it too far. I definitely agree that there are times when the anger and calling out turns into a contest of who can score the most “points” until the target slinks off or shuts up, which ends up doing nothing constructive.
Galhea
1 Sep 10 at 2:27 am
And I mean there’s situations that I think people will paint as bullying, like on ontd_p, when shrines was hounded by a couple other members when she didn’t respond positively to one cis guy’s white knighting? And no one tried to meet her even half-way? And then she became the problem after they spent multiple exchanges trolling her?
Also, as was pointed out to me, the other thing you can get from bullying online is reduced consequences as compared to face to face.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 2:31 am
Yeah, I saw that too, and in fact that gang-up was a huge eye-opening experience for me in multiple ways. I’d already gotten many hints that there were problems under the surface, but until then I couldn’t articulate it properly for what it was, and who the actual perpetrators and targets were. That particular situation was so awful in how it seemed like a large part of the community (or at least many of the frequent participants) and even the mod team came down on the minority being bullied instead of seeing it for what it was.
Then again, that also brought up some issues of internal stuff, in that (IIRC) at least one of the “other side” wasn’t cis and their gender identity was dismissed because they consistently said busted crap and trolled. And I hesitate to even mention that because I am in no way condoning what they said or what they did, but it felt personally uncomfortable for me to witness someone’s identity being mislabeled, apparently just because of the busted stuff they say. Which brings me back to the internal bullying stuff, and my anxiety in speaking up since I don’t want to derail or seem to even remotely be on the wrong side of anything.
…It took me a while to even hit submit comment due to the above paragraph. Gah.
Galhea
1 Sep 10 at 3:06 am
Yeah, I remember when she was telling me which terminology was really offensive to trans women and which was not, she used her father (a trans man) and her own genderqueer identity to imply legitimacy.
But yes, it was not cool to erase her as genderqueer to respond to what she said.
I don’t think anything shrines did in that thread could remotely qualify as bullying. Frustration, anger, yes. But it took multiple exchanges before she even lost her temper, and then was banned for a relatively mild bit of swearing.
And it’s pretty weird talking about that stuff here, but yeah. I mean, there is a lot of it that happens on LJ and DW, I think. And a lot of reasonable calling out that gets portrayed as bullying and intimidation.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 3:19 am
Yeah, that person (trying to avoid names here, and pronouns since I’m not sure of their preference) definitely has some really busted ideas and has a lot of internalized crap to deal with, which they’ve externalized at the wrong targets, but their self-identity isn’t the issue and it really made me feel as if I couldn’t speak up, as I’m not trans* but neutrois.
And yes, shrines was definitely not the bully. She can come across really harsh and intimidating at times, but the reactions of others to what she said was what was overreacting. Personally, I think people were just looking for an excuse to ban the “bullies” since it took the mod team quite a bit longer to actually ban the person causing the problem and doing the bullying.
Er, yeah, sorry for digressing. That was just one recent incident that had some relevant examples. It’s really messed up that when we defend ourselves against oppression that we end up being called the problem, but that’s kyriarchy; the privileged side using the tone argument to keep us in our place. *sigh*
Galhea
1 Sep 10 at 3:50 am
Neutrois doesn’t fit under the trans umbrella? I thought it did. I don’t want to define you against your will, but the only people I can think of who’d tell you “no” are people I don’t particularly care to listen to.
Also, I’m mostly sure said person does use feminine pronouns.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 3:54 am
Oops, should have clarified that I don’t label myself as trans*, as in transgender or transsexual. Neutrois does fall under the trans* label though. I’ve just gotten into the habit of saying I’m not trans* because I’m still wrestling with my anxiety over definitions, and because I’m still not entirely sure when I, as a neutrois person, can speak about other trans* issues without being told I’m speaking for others.
Okay, I wasn’t sure about her pronoun preference because I kind of reflexively block out what she says due to the headdesk and facepalm frequency, heh. And the cringe factor.
Galhea
1 Sep 10 at 4:08 am
Working my way through my own stuff about this, but in the meantime – the e.e.smith link currently goes to Nix’s entry. :)
Jack
1 Sep 10 at 4:46 am
I’m de-lurking to say that I’ve been noticing this going on, too. A lot of swarmers are quite good at re-purposing the rules of engagement to help them swarm. If I want to tell someone “Wrong wrong wrong and clearly you suck,” I can because it’s okay to be angry. If they ask for clarification, I can tell them that I don’t need to educate them. And if they ask me to post something with more content, I can tell them not to use the tone argument. And if I make some posts to the right places, I can get 10 other people to swarm along with me.
It’s one of the big reasons why I don’t talk about anything serious on my personal blog.
Baba Yaga
1 Sep 10 at 7:46 am
I’ve thought about this some more and have realized that there are some subjects that I am absolutely terrified to talk about, because I’ve seen these horrible pile-ons happen to other people who expressed similar viewpoints.
For example: I don’t believe that I’ve ever said anything about the fact that before I transitioned, I was paid the kind of salaries men get paid, and that benefited me in a quite concrete way: I’ve got funds to ride out a long period of under/unemployment that I might not have had were I perceived as a woman prior to transition.
I wasn’t a man. But I was treated like one, at least in some ways, and I benefited economically from that.
But there seems to be zero space to talk about things like that in the trans community, because I feel like people will just dogpile on me and use the language of “calling out (internalized) transphobia” and refuse to take a step back and at least acknowledge that this was my experience, that I at least was granted that privilege and to use that as a starting point in the discussion of white male privilege and how it intersects with trans folk of all genders in complicated ways.
Nope, everybody wants to make a binary division into these words are good and those words are evil, so you are too and we’re going to teach you a lesson.
Even as I write these words, I’m expecting I’ll be dog-piled on this thread.
There’s a hell of a lot of uncomfortable discussions to be had internally within our community, and if we don’t have them and we keep secrets, how can we make a cohesive response to cissupremacism?
GallingGalla
1 Sep 10 at 7:49 am
Errr…I shouldn’t say that I’m expecting to be dog-piled, but that I’m fearing it.
GallingGalla
1 Sep 10 at 7:53 am
If I may? I think part of the point about cis ideas around the–to call it something–”pretransition” privilege and socialization of trans people is that we are absolutely not a monolith and many of us had quite different experiences being seen as gender conforming or non, and at different places with regards to masculine privilege and femmephobia and sexism, and our other places within the kyriarchy. And this seems totally an impossible nuance for cis people to understand, and they punish us for it.
But that certainly isn’t your fault at all.
jayinchicago
1 Sep 10 at 7:59 am
GG-
Actually, topics like that have been what I’ve wanted to bring up for quite a while, and I for one would not dogpile on it. There are lots of good, meaty issues to talk about with regards to what you said about privilege prior to transition that I would like to see explored-maybe you should write a post about that for here?
Amanda in the South Bay
1 Sep 10 at 8:00 am
jayinchicago: Absolutely true. Cis people see us a monolith.
I guess my point is that we cannot as effectively counter with an argument pointing out our very complex relationships to privilege and socialization if we are afraid to discuss same within our own community. If we want to say “we are not a monolith” to the cis world, then we have to be able to acknowledge and talk about our own experiences and how they fit into the larger framework of kyriarchy, and that can’t happen if trans folk are afraid to say, frex, “it’s more complicated than that, I don’t fit the Approved Trans Feminine Activist Narrative in this particular area” (and I do believe said narrative posits that no trans woman has ever gotten economic privilege from being perceived as a man prior to transition).
GallingGalla
1 Sep 10 at 8:42 am
Galla: That’s kind of sad, really. Personally, I would think that the experiences of trans people before and after transition would be especially valuable–you’ve experienced things from both sides. You can compare those experiences in a way that few other people can.
Jayn
1 Sep 10 at 8:49 am
@GG:
I think that that was one of the first things I noticed when I started to transition-availability if financial resources has a major role in transitioning, and it’s not hard to notice that if you ate well off prior to transitioning, it’s a rather large advantage. I think moreover it’s certainly timely, the economy being in the shitter and all.
I think issues about class, privilege, transition, etc aren’t talked about as much as they should be.
Amanda in the South Bay
1 Sep 10 at 9:12 am
Sorry for the poor spelling, the iPod Touch sucks for this kind of thing
Amanda in the South Bay
1 Sep 10 at 9:13 am
GallingGalla: I don’t see any reason to dogpile on you. You’re stating a fact, and acknowledging your experience of privilege. (I find people who deny their privilege to be the annoying ones.)
LDR
1 Sep 10 at 9:21 am
GallingGalla, I’m not going to allow a dogpile to happen here (or I’ll take care of it when I can if one starts). The socialization thread is really a good place to discuss this.
The main problem isn’t really what people here will tell you, but – if it’s a problem at all – that people who already hate us will use it as ammunition. But you know, they’ve already done the same to other trans women like Lynn Conway and already talk about how (white) trans women apparently have massive male (class) privilege pre-transition. And you can talk about what transition cost you in those terms as well, because whatever they may think, transitioning often has a cost well beyond the simple matter of paying for medical professionals, electrolysis, hormones, surgery, etc.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 9:45 am
Baba Yaga,
Well, being angry and not wanting to educate can both be okay. It’s where that crosses the line into abuse and intimidation that it’s not. If someone uses a slur that directly impacts me (and there are so many) and clearly intends to be insulting, I may not really be in a mood to have a sitdown with him to provide him with everything he needs to fully understand why it’s making me upset, but I think that it’s fine and appropriate for me to point out that his slur is upsetting and I would like him to stop.
On the other hand, I do agree that the rules of engagement are re-purposed. Abuse and intimidation are characterized as tone, and that’s been a problem in the past, which is what s.e. smith is talking about in ou’s post, and brownfemipower is talking about in hers. And what I’m talking about here. Like, there’s a difference between being angry and trying to destroy someone with text.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 10:10 am
Lisa, ok I’ll take the discussion over there. I guess I was using that as an example of how horizontal oppression operates via bullying, and how those who enable kyriarchy (that is, all of us) benefit from a marginalized group sapping its own energy with intragroup bullying and splitting.
GallingGalla
1 Sep 10 at 10:39 am
GG,
I didn’t mean that to be a “You have to move the conversation,” and I got what you meant. I just wanted to let you know that I’m okay with you talking about that specific subject, that I just wrote a post that covers it, and I’ll come down on people who try to silence the conversation.
And I agree it’s a wonderful example and definitely worth talking about how topics can be policed here.
What I wasn’t doing was telling you that you could only talk about this over there. I’m sorry it came off that way.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 10:42 am
I’m not trans myself, but I’ve had some similar experiences calling people out on disability issues. Intellectually, I understand and agree with everything you’re saying here, but when I’m in the moment….it’s really hard, for me, to utilize this kind of stuff. It’s hard to assume someone’s not an asshole, when they’re saying the same messed up shit I’ve heard a zillion assholes spouting before. It’s hard buckling down to have The Conversation again, instead of going straight to screaming at my computer. It’s hard being polite and patient with someone, even someone well-meaning, when I’m afraid that the next thing they say is going to send me into rage-mode for the rest of the day. :\
And yeah, it’s kind of fun to see the righteous anger of an entire community rain down on someone who pisses me off. It’s nice to know that other people are on my side, that I’m not going to end up looking like the lone nutcase with a stick up her rear again. It’s funny, watching jerks and trolls get ripped to shreds by the mob. It’s so much easier to just sit back and let the hivemind do the work, instead of putting myself out there where I can get hurt again.
So about this post…I dunno. I feel kind of torn, to be honest.
Rongeur
1 Sep 10 at 12:21 pm
Okay, I just want to be clear:
I’m not saying anyone has to be kind or nice.
I’m not saying anyone has to educate.
I’m not saying anyone has to watch their tone.
I’m not saying anyone has to be patient.
I’m not saying anyone can’t be angry.
I am talking about outright abusive behavior, intimidation, silencing tactics, even in some cases libel used against people, defining people as pure evil to be struck down by any means necessary.
When I talk about opening the way for a conversation I don’t mean invalidating the real anger and pain anyone experiences when someone fires all guns and unleashes the hateful stereotypes, the slurs, the oppressive language, and more about marginalized groups. I still stand behind every word of this post.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 12:50 pm
Oh, and this post isn’t strictly about trans people.
BTW, please don’t take any of the above as chiding. I want to clarify what I meant because I think people are taking me to be saying something I didn’t say (and tried to make clear at the end of the post).
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 12:50 pm
Rongeur, I think the post is more about internal bullying than taking the privileged people to task. I for one have little sympathy or patience for prejudiced people who refuse to respect me as a person, but if I feel that there may be a slim chance that extending an olive branch, figuratively speaking, will get the person to realize and change their behavior and attitude, I’d do it over jumping on them. It depends on context for me, as 99% of the time the privileged people will be willfully obtuse and stubborn, and any attempt to educate them will be futile.
The anger only becomes a problem when it’s used between ourselves as marginalized groups to score bully points and be “right” about something, and that’s when it gets really problematic. We shouldn’t be fighting amongst ourselves and using silencing tactics to shut out differing viewpoints and perspectives, which is what’s happening.
Galhea
1 Sep 10 at 1:37 pm
Lisa: It’s cool.
I think perhaps some people are confusing niceness with kindness?
Because when I call someone out (and I’m talking a legit callout of someone who is privileged relative to me, and not pseudo-callout bullying)? I am being kind, because I am giving the other person an opportunity for growth. I’m assuming that they are actually capable of that, and that they *are* a decent human being who made a mistake.
I don’t call out rabid radfems or rigid right-wingers because I don’t feel any kindness to them. They have made their choice to actively hate me, and I don’t have kindness to spare for them. If I do object to them, it’s in the context of a forum such as this one where I’m doing it so that *other readers* can see my viewpoint and perhaps look a little deeper in themselves. The people who are just not sure, who are lurking, who are in read-and-learn mode, you know?
GallingGalla
1 Sep 10 at 2:16 pm
I really appreciate you tackling this subject. I’ve definitely been in situations where an original oppressive act (real, misunderstood, or fabricated) became the basis for justifying any and all oppressive behavior against the original person.
One of my abusers used that as a primary tactic. I would inevitably do something wrong, as we all do. Or sometimes it wasn’t really wrong but simply didn’t fit the extremely complicated and sometimes convoluted set of rules they came up with to determine what is right and wrong (aka oppressive). Conveniently the “right” thing to do was always the thing that benefited them. Such as when they told me that comforting my other partner in emotional distress would be giving into and rewarding manipulative behavior — the “right” thing to do would be to not change my plans and stay with them to makeout some more.
When I did break the rules, they would harshly yell at me, usually for 20-30 min, finding my emotional weak points and exploiting them, often bringing me to the point of tears, refuse to acknowledge the potential for any responsibility on their part, and in a few cases refusing to hug me on principle until I had endured enough emotional pain to teach me my lesson because it was not appropriate for the “oppressed party” to comfort their “oppressor.”
The bullying callouts I see online tend not to hold the same intensity, but are often built around the same system. The same justification of any and all response in the name of calling out oppressive behavior. The same insistence that the target deserves to be hurt that way. The same deflection of any criticism by repainting it an attempt to avoid accountability.
Tobi
1 Sep 10 at 3:21 pm
[...] CommentsThe Culture of Internet Call Outs at Questioning Transphobia on Fgould on stressed thoughts about eminem/rihannashannon the nerd on stressed thoughts about [...]
flip flopping joy » Blog Archive
1 Sep 10 at 4:31 pm
Hmmm… I find this post interesting as it basically articulates why I now have nothing to do with the trans community (online and irl) outside of a very few sites (this being one of them) where people are more articulate and considered when it comes to diversity in gender variance. I used to participate in a few forums and attempted to get to know a few trans people through organizations and support groups in this country, but I discovered that my personal sense of identity seems to be an anathema to a small, but significant, vocal, and extremely vindictive number of trans women in particular.
For background I’m a queer identified, androgynous transsexual woman who generally never uses the word transsexual outside of conversations where my medical history is relevant (or someones business). I generally describe myself as a queer and/or gender queer woman and use the term transgendered where relevant (discussing social implications of gender variance). I’m an artist and this don’t interface much with the corporate/working world – hence my daily uniform tends to be jeans, steel caps and a t-shirt (practical safe clothing) – I don’t much meet the stereotypical cissexist stereotypes. And I’m a little bit opinionated :P when it comes to social politics – especially wrt intersectionality and variable decentering.
I’m generally pretty happy with being me, and I don’t feel any need to alter how I operate, this isn’t a radical position, just that i feel reasonably comfortable in my skin these days – which is a really nice place to be generally.
But when I interact with large parts of the trans community, I can’t really help myself but to signal my discomfort about how people such as male crossdressers and other groups are spoken about – at which point if I have described myself at all I typically experience the situation of someone leading into a vicious assault on my person, body, politics, etc. which frequently heads into to territory of there supposedly being no such thing as genderqueer trans women, and genderqueer people exclusively being college aged women, this tends to go straight to my being told to F*** off as I’m supposedly a F****t, a cross dresser, ‘just playing with gender’, etc. I’ve had this several times in a couple of places, and in each case the attack has come well after I have described myself, it’s been from someone who has researched me enough to (mis) quote things I’ve said, and most tellingly, these pile ons have been tolerated or even exacerbated by mods (“If what they’re saying isn’t true then why would it bother you”), this abuse was always underlined by trigger words as tacit (on one occasion explicit) threats.
When this has happened it’s come from only a couple of people each time, but it’s been tolerated by most people present. It took me till it happened IRL to work out what was happening – that I was challenging stereotypes with a broader, more inclusive, and less critical view on sex, gender, and sexuality. In challenging these stereotypes I was having people think that I was undermining their identities, and people were jumping straight to the big guns to eliminate my viewpoint (and me) so that the disjunctive concept would go away.
When I had it happen IRL (and I’m being careful here, cos I don’t want this crap coming back) I had a trans-woman decide that my identity painted her (by association) with a brush she didn’t like. I became aware of the situation by dint of having a massive dose of homophobia, misogyny, and trans-specific-phobia dumped on me by a very homophobic man and from other women telling me that I had to actually ‘start acting like a woman’ or they’d treat me as a man (wear makeup and dresses – same crap as the psychs), which quickly escalated to tacit threats of rape and violence (from the men and apologism from the women). I very rapidly disengaged from that situation, and moved physically to another town. This happened well after transition, not during.
At that point I made a very conscious decision to cut myself off from any transphobia, homophobia, transmysogyny, or similar sorts of bigotry, which has completely stopped any participation in any forums at all (online or irl), and has made me focus a great deal more on blogs. I do see the same swarm mentality in blogs, but it’s different in that it is often a person entering the comments of a blog that they disagree with that gets swarmed, an inter- community thing as opposed to intra-community community phenomenon.
I haven’t personally had to deal with much bigotry from outside of the trans community, generally people are civil, I’ve had a few ‘rad-fems’ and homophobes denounce me, but even that has been random attacks, and very infrequent, rather than sustained policing such as I have had from within the ‘community’. I’m now almost totally divorced from much of the struggles within the trans community as I’m perfectly aware that my identity will be policed out of most debate. I sorta lurk around the periphery and chat with people I know and respect, but for the time being, attempting to engage with ‘my’ community has severely burnt me out.
Em
1 Sep 10 at 4:37 pm
Reading various links, people keep saying “It’s not about tone”… because apparently “tone” is a dirty word. Thought for you: when you’re talking about being polite, and respecting other people viewpoints, and not starting arguments over nothing, then it’s very much about tone. Tone is all of the difference between “That was interesting, but I disagree with X” and “**** you, *******, X is ****** up **** and you can **** my *****!”.
If you’re attempting to disagree with someone in a productive way, by actually persuading them to your point of view, then tone is probably the most important factor. Because while it would be nice if everyone responded to logic regardless of how it’s presented, the fact is we don’t.
And I’m still rather annoyed by the idea that maintaining basic courtesy is somehow not worth bothering with.
I’m also somewhat surprised that this is “something new”. I dimly recall my first experiences with the internet basically just being arguments.
Lucinde
1 Sep 10 at 6:13 pm
Saying or doing something offensive is already rude, and at that point courtesy has already been discarded. Anger in that situation has to be understandable, or people are not only subjected to slurs and insults just for who they are, but then they’re expected to be the bigger person.
This isn’t disagreement, and I think it’s pretty trivializing to position situations where real harm has been inflicted as “disagreements” and not acknowledge them for what they are.
Please do not confuse the courtesy of not being abusive or using intimidation with the idea of simply being hurt and angry.
I also never said that maintaining basic courtesy is not worth bothering with. I, personally, try to maintain a level of courtesy as much as possible, even when I am hurt and angry, and I do think that courtesy gets better results but that is a choice that people make when they engage someone who has just harmed them, and not a choice imposed upon them by others.
I hope that clarifies what I am saying.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 6:25 pm
Tobi,
Thank you for that and offering further context.
I do think there’s a tendency to also underestimate the harm that can be caused online and as I just found out, that harm can be pretty deep – not that you’re doing that, but I wanted to add it to the points you made. The online interactions are still with real people and we are still often putting much of ourselves into what we say and do here.
Em,
That kind of thing to a much lesser extent is why I separated from a lot of the offline trans community in the late 80s and much of the 90s. Much sympathy on the burnout, and I really appreciate your post. I hope to keep QT as welcoming as possible.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 6:32 pm
Oh, and to add to my response to Lucinde:
I think it’s pretty appropriate to question the idea of calling out as this thing we’re expected to do and expect others to do to us. I think maybe it is a good idea to question the idea of calling out, as bfp pointed out to me in the comments in the trackback above, and I’ll probably post about that too once I have time to process this.
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 6:58 pm
Lucinde:
“If you’re attempting to disagree with someone in a productive way, by actually persuading them to your point of view, then tone is probably the most important factor.”
Well, sometimes I found that a good old “**** you, *******, X is ****** up **** and you can **** my *****!” can be as effective as a very politely constructed answer.
I know it depends on the person, but I’ve been on the wrong side of the yelling on this and, well, it made me understand clearly I had done something wrong and hurt someone.
For me the problem is more a question of sincerity than tone: I mean, if I hurt someone and they react agressively, I don’t blame them and tend to question myself instead, now if it’s on every little disagreement, as a calculated way to shut me down, it’s pretty different.
Ellie
1 Sep 10 at 7:29 pm
Okay, I want to clarify something:
I am not going to name names here because I do not want to dig up old problems, and I want to move forward:
But this post is about real harm that was done to real people. Part of the process of writing this post was facing the fact that I allowed harm to come to people who didn’t deserve it – not that this is about me. But the fact that these things happened and they should not have. And the continuing silence has compounded that harm.
I don’t want to just dwell on it and continue going on about past harm. I want to point out that the tactics I’m talking about aren’t about debating whether we’re being nice enough or using the right tone or educating, but that the abuse needs to not fucking happen.
So can we focus on that?
I don’t even think we really need to be talking about calling out at this point. I think we need to find a way to move beyond that. To find a way for all of us to engage that doesn’t perpetrate the same pain we’re trying to oppose.
Can we do that?
Lisa Harney
1 Sep 10 at 7:54 pm
Sounds good to me. :)
Part of my wrestling with trauma residue has been trying to sort out just what it is I want to say, in simple terms. I’m teaching myself to differentiate “Ouch!” and “Knock that specific shit there off!” and “Oh God I’d like never to interact with you again ever barring drastic personality reconstruction on your part”. Okay, that last one wasn’t very simple, but you know what I mean.
One thing is that not all calling out should carry the same kinds of implications. Sometimes you want to call out a monstrously evil habit of action and thought that’s doing tremendous harm, and should be seen as overwhelmingly shameful and dangerous, and you want the practitioner both to stop it but in the meantime to go away and stop fucking up other people’s exchanges. Sometimes it’s a lot more focused than that – a matter of a specific ignorant action, or a series of thoughtless moments in which internalized biases bubble up and hurt someone else, and you want to remind the person of good things they already know and wish to do. These are really different actions, but in practice both get called “calling out” a lot.
I don’t have a further point yet; mulling it over. Thanks for writing this up, and again, wow, thanks to commenters for more to chew on.
Hidden Heart
2 Sep 10 at 4:18 am
@lisa
At this stage you should probably ignore me. I seem to have responded to the post I thought you made about X, which is not in fact the post that you did make about Y. Internet communication fail, sorry.
Lucinde
2 Sep 10 at 5:38 am
It’s cool, Lucinde. Thank you for caring enough to speak up either way. :)
Lisa Harney
2 Sep 10 at 10:38 am
Thank you so much for this post. The hate I’ve seen, particularly on LJ, has been frightening. When a regular poster made a death threat speaking up seemed impossible and counterproductive because it would only mean more bullying and more attention focused on the original victim. You are so courageous to admit your feelings here. The support you’ve received does a sad, cynical, internet-blasted heart good.
Tobias
3 Sep 10 at 1:29 pm
[...] Ranging from becoming a ritualization of the call out and apology that destroys sincerity, becoming a dialogue destroying influence, being used even in situations where a dialogue is a massive necess… (and a call out would be inappropriate) or being applied in swarm fashion, creating a mob that [...]
[Activist Modus Operandi] The Anatomy of a Call Out (And Why It Needs To Change) « Genderbitch: Musings of a Trans Chick
4 Sep 10 at 7:53 pm
Just as a point of clarification:
This comment thread is not the place for bringing up two year old grudges, for disingenuous accusations, or outright lies. This thread is not the place to act the bully to try to shame or condemn people for the bullying, manipulative, abusive bullshit you pulled in another private space.
This is not the place to rewrite history or flog your grudge with other group blogs.
Lisa Harney
22 Sep 10 at 11:15 am
Oh, and banned forever for lying on my blog about me and the people you hurt.
Lisa Harney
22 Sep 10 at 11:15 am
[...] this campus is not big on call-outs (not really an explanatory post but the best I could find). This makes me uncomfortable for [...]
That didn’t go as bad as it could’ve « Binary Subverter
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[...] Lisa Harney, The Culture of Internet Call Outs [...]
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