New York Times Says Trans People are Ethically Required to Out Themselves on Dates
Randy Cohen, the ethicist*, has declared that trans people are ethically required to disclose to their dates. He says:
Getting to know someone is a gradual process. I might panic if on a first date someone began talking about what to name the nine kids she’s eager for us to raise in our new home under the sea. Premature disclosure can be as unnerving as protracted concealment. But as partners cultivate romance, and particularly as they move toward erotic involvement, there are things each should reveal, things they would not mention to a casual acquaintance — any history of S.T.D.’s, for example, or the existence of any current spouse. Even before a first kiss, this person should have told you those things that you would regard as germane to this phase of your evolving relationship, including his being transgendered. Clearly he thought you’d find it pertinent; that’s why he discreditably withheld it, lest you reject him.
So he actually does use the word “panic” in that paragraph, which is kind of ominous. He also compares disclosing that you’re trans to disclosing STDs or whether you’re currently married to someone else.
As usually happens when it comes to trans people and dating, confidentiality and privacy are thrown out the window as soon as cis people insert themselves into the situation. Cohen (who is, by the way, a humorist and not an ethicist, who has written for the historically transphobic David Letterman show) says that it is fine for the cis woman who asked this question to out the trans man she dated to her friends, that her right to process something that doesn’t actually have a serious impact on her supercedes his right to privacy or any consideration for confidentiality.
He tries to soften it by saying “No handbills, and don’t ask him to announce it from the pulpit,” but as many of us have experienced, once someone outs you, the word can spread like wildfire. Cis people seem to think that learning that someone is trans is a particularly salacious and juicy rumor, one that will get passed around from person to person. It just takes hitting one cis person who doesn’t care more about your safety than about hir ability to get a cheap thrill exposing your secrets, and in my experience the majority of cis people are like this. Cohen even describes the trans man in question as discreditable, because he withheld this information until he was ready to divulge it. This is a pretty explicit acknowledgement of how many cis people view trans people: Our transness makes us discreditable. It doesn’t matter when we’re outed (by ourselves or others), once we are, we’re discreditable. Everything we say is doubted – about our competence, about our honesty, about our gender. Everything about us is false except what cis people allow us to have by inscribing upon us, usually against our will.
For an example, remember the trans man who crashed a trolley while texting, and how many responses implied he shouldn’t even be allowed to drive a trolley because he’s trans? How about this cis man who caused the worst train crash in 15 years while texting? Somehow his cisness didn’t serve as a warning sign, right? The first story I linked even implies that Aiden Quinn was hired strictly because he was a minority, and not because he had any competence in driving a trolley. Okay, in both cases? Texting while driving is a really bad idea. Texting while transporting passengers is many times worse. But trans man crashes while texting? Trans people are dangerous. Cis man crashes while texting? Silence.
I read about this story on Bilerico, and Dr. Weiss dissects it pretty nicely. She also suggests writing the New York Times to complain about this:
I strongly suggest that Cohen is in need of criticism and education regarding transgender people, particularly from gay and straight allies of transgender people. He ought to issue a retraction. Here’s the address to write to him: ethicist@nytimes.com Letters to the editor may be addressed to letters@nytimes.com.
It is important to also mention the racial element of anti-trans hate crimes when discussing trans panic.
* Not really an ethicist.
This is the fourth major fuck-up on trans issues that I’ve seen in The New York Times Magazine alone. I’m wondering if I should just tell that magazine to go stuff it.
(To those curious: one was a column that described a hypothetical trans person’s desire for surgery as “voluntary,” one was an article on trans men in women’s colleges that failed to mention trans women even once (yes, once again with the idea that trans men are “really” women), and one was a column that described all the many efforts to craft an English-language, gender-neutral, third-person pronoun, but failed to mention the transgender community’s efforts _at all._ I start to wonder if the New York Times has ever discovered _Wikipedia._)
(yes, I’m too sleepy to add links…)
Tina Russell
11 Jul 10 at 11:31 pm
You know, I always find it pretty discreditable when cis people don’t immediately disclose their cis status to me when they first come into contact with me. I have to take a deep breath and discuss it thoroughly amongst my circle of friends before I can come to terms with them being cis.
z
11 Jul 10 at 11:38 pm
Z, totally. I find cis people’s unwillingness to disclose transphobia pretty discreditable as well.
Lisa Harney
11 Jul 10 at 11:42 pm
I have seen this argument before, in many ways. “They were lying/dishonest because they did not tell…” that they were Jewish, that their great grandmother was black, etc”.
Interesting, how it always seems to be about something the person is prejudiced against and other things that weren’t mentioned are no big deal…
Scribblemethis
12 Jul 10 at 12:20 am
Personally I tend to be of the option that cisexist arsehole be up front about it, so that no trans person will ever be tricked into sleeping with one of them
genderqueer2genderqueer
12 Jul 10 at 1:57 am
genderqueer2genderqueer: well, yeah (except if they don’t know you’re trans, actually), but I don’t think being an arsehole is the only manifestation of transphobia, and I think it’s completely possible that someone claims to have really *no* problem with his/her partner being trans and so on yet you realize a bit of time later that it’s not so simple and e.g. he/she doesn’t want to be seen in public with you or start complaining that really it’s very difficult for him/her and you should make efforts and understand when he/she is an asshole…
Ellie
12 Jul 10 at 3:25 am
I’m not disagreeing with the fact that transphobia exists, or that that article you quoted was indeed offensive. I dated a man a few years who was born female and he was a great guy, but I knew beforehand. And yes, I would want to know if someone I was dating was trans, because I’m making an emotional investment in that person. I want to know what your going through, what your life was like, what hardships you face, what dates are important to you, what issues you’re sensitive to. And as a relationship grows deeper, there are things that become important, like having children, whether or not you’re out to your family/friends, medication and medical issues, etc. No, it’s not first date material, but something that affects your life so broadly should be talked about early in a relationship. If someone really cares about you, they’ll want to know so they can be a good partner.
What I really don’t like is this. “Cis people seem to think that learning that someone is trans is a particularly salacious and juicy rumor”
No, no I really don’t, and the fact that you said that about ALL cis people, about ME, turned me off to anything else you had to say. Later you clarify to say the ‘majority’ of cis people. But you know, the majority of cis people that read your blog are going to be people that like and respect the trans people in their lives. Why would you want to insult them and turn them away from you?
Also- I didn’t hear a word about that trolley crash, and I did hear about the train crash, I heard about that an awful lot. Maybe it’s because I don’t keep up with trans news (much, anymore) or maybe it’s because I live in New England, but I think this might be a case that you heard more about it because it interested you more.
Jess
12 Jul 10 at 6:52 am
You can want the moon on a platter of gold for all I care, but this decision is up to trans people to make for themselves. This decision is not for cis people to demand. Yes, this means some trans people will disclose, and some will not, but ultimately, what you want is only relevant if any trans person you date agrees with you. Are you willing to disclose to your trans partners that you are only willing to listen to them if they never say anything critical about cis people?
If you’re this angry about a generalized statement about the majority population that just happens to be true in general, even if it’s not true for every cis person, then maybe you’re here for the wrong reasons. This blog is about transphobia, which means that cis people will often read opinions and statements that they find uncomfortable. That’s a natural consequence of facing your privilege, and it’s not something I really want to put any energy into making easier for anyone.
It’s like this: If it’s not about you, it’s not about you. Don’t make it about you. I’m not going to sit here on my own blog and make sure to spell out exceptions every time I make a generalization about transphobia. It’s not as if such things are going to cost you your job, or deny you health care, or cause people to gossip about your most closely guarded secrets, is it?
You misunderstood me – I heard about the train crash when it happened. The trolley crash happened in New England, so I have no idea what you mean by that. My point was that the stories about the trolley crash emphasized that Aiden was trans, and commenters made snarky and transphobic comments about how you shouldn’t let trans people drive in public. The train crash story obviously did not emphasize or even allude to the fact that the man was cis, and of course no one who commented on the stories blamed his accident on him being cis. I was making a point about how perceptions of people as trans change how people talk about and treat them.
Lisa Harney
12 Jul 10 at 7:15 am
@Jess. Out of here, with the Tone Argument. Out of here with the “But you’re just as bad as THEM” derail. STOP it with your cis privileged whining and threatening to run away and not listen anymore manipulativeness. Just stop!!
If you would like to know whether or not your partners are trans before you date them, it is your responibility to ASK. Not theirs to tell. What YOU consider a MUST know is YOUR responsibility to find out, yours yours yours. It is not OUR responsibility to make things easier for you to figure out.
It damn sure isn’t the responsbility of a trans-centric blog to make sure all posts are framed so as not to disparage your cis privilege. YES, You as a cis person exist in a state of privilege. You as a cis person hold MUCH MORE POWER to harm and offend trans persons than they do you, by virtue of the fact you would even threaten to withdraw your measly support from the entire trans community unless we speak more respectfully about cis people. You see how that works, Jess? That’s what we’re talking about when we say Cis Privilege. That’s what we’re talking about when we say Cis people are offensive, that they don’t care about trans feelings, only their own. THAT.
You owe the commenters here an apology with your derailing rant.
Jane Laplain
12 Jul 10 at 7:21 am
Yes, it is for the individual to decide, things like this always are. But I don’t feel so right bashing on a man who’s only advice (that he was quite clear about, it was in the first paragraph) was for her NOT to go telling people that the person is trans. He was only being sympathetic to her frustrations, like advice columnists do.
” Are you willing to disclose to your trans partners that you are only willing to listen to them if they never say anything critical about cis people?”
I wouldn’t date anyone, trans or otherwise, who would make cruel generalizations about any group of people based on something they can’t help. I would not be quiet about it if they said all black/Jewish/homosexual/blind people were gossip mongers who don’t respect people’s rights, either. That doesn’t sit right with me.
It’s not so much a personal issue, even, it’s bad journalism. Generalizations are offensive. Even if they are about a majority, that just means people will be more hesitant to point it out.
If I want people to listen to me and take what I have to say seriously, I can’t say bad things about the people who I’m trying to appeal to the ethics of.
There is a HUGE difference between ‘cis people’ and ‘transphobics’. I’m not asking you to spell out exceptions, just use a more proper term. There are many, many cis people (I would guess most of them that read this blog) that are not transphobes, and to use the terms interchangeably seems unfair and unappealing.
I’m sorry, I didn’t know the trolley crash was in NE too (the link was broken, and we don’t have too many trolleys around here so I assumed it was elsewhere. my bad.)
Jess
12 Jul 10 at 7:49 am
Re NYT. I suppose I should have complained because it could ( still ) cause problems when they outed me, without so much as a by your leave. But it wasn’t in a major section and the pure ecstasy of seeing the right pronouns…
Sophia
12 Jul 10 at 8:19 am
@Jane Laplain
I’m not threatening to run anywhere, I am still staying right where I am with my morals. I have close friends in this community and I’m not going to turn against them just because one blogger said something I didn’t like. That would be silly.
To tell or not to tell someone you’re dating about any personal thing like this is up to you, yes. I’m sorry for implying that it might be nice for someone like me to be able to be supportive, to what’s going on in the life of someone I’m dating.
It is indeed the responsibility of a blog that is trying to be proactive for rights for transpeople to portray a good image, and this entry failed to do that, coming off as offensive and creating an ‘us vs. them’ mentality.
Explain to me how I can offend or harm a trans person more easily than they can harm or offend me. From where I see things, I have just as many things that I don’t tell most people that could harm me socially, personally or professionally as anyone else. Everyone has their burdens to bear.
I don’t owe anyone an apology for expressing an opinion about the journalistic merit of this blog. I’m not personally derailing anyone.
Jess
12 Jul 10 at 8:21 am
**If I want people to listen to me and take what I have to say seriously, I can’t say bad things about the people who I’m trying to appeal to the ethics of. **
Again with the tone argument. Was the point of the post to get cis people to take trans people more seriously? Or was the point of the post to analyze the cissexist assumptions made by the NY Times author? Do trans people only speak for the benefit of cis people?: Must the conerns of cis people always be centered in discussion of trans?
These aren’t rhetorical questions for you, Jess. Somehow you seem to think there is no difference between a trans person saying “cis people tend to do this specific thing which damages trans persons” and a trans person saying “all cis people are scum” or however else you are perceiving the above criticism… How then are we take seriously the idea of maintaining any conversation with you?
Here’s what I think. I think that What you THINK you are dong is promoting equality and fairness and “genderblindness” in all discourse. But what you are actually doing is ignoring the blatant power imbalances that exist between the Cis and Trans communities, which is the context framing Lisa’s original criticism you objected to as a “stereotype.” Then after forming an opinion of the content based upon the false premise of all generalizations are equally harmful, you come into a trans safe-space and telling us to clean up our language because you don’t like how we are talking about cis people.
No thank you.
Jane Laplain
12 Jul 10 at 8:27 am
**Explain to me how I can offend or harm a trans person more easily than they can harm or offend me**
If I out you as a cis privileged whiner in trans blog forums to your boss, your landlord, or in public I will likely be ignored in the attempt. But even so, the effect upon your daily life is negligible because you live in a world where most people are cis and likely don’t take trans people seriously.
If you out me as a trans anything to my boss, to my landlord, or in public I am at risk of being misgendered, stalked, attacked, publically humiliated, fired, or kicked out of my apartment for being trans.
THAT is how. And none of that goes away in RL just because we’re online and fairly anonymous.
Jane Laplain
12 Jul 10 at 8:38 am
@Jess
“I’m not personally derailing anyone.”
Yes, that is exactly what you are doing. You are making this discussion about you rather than about the subject at hand.
Ruth Ellen
12 Jul 10 at 10:46 am
“Explain to me how I can offend or harm a trans person more easily than they can harm or offend me. From where I see things, I have just as many things that I don’t tell most people that could harm me socially, personally or professionally as anyone else.”
So, you deny that such a concept as privilege and oppression exists? That’s social justice 101. Transphobia can’t really exist as a concept without the flipside–cis privilege.
Just Some Trans Guy
12 Jul 10 at 10:49 am
Jess,
Also, you should be aware that there is context here that you are likely missing. This conversation is happening in a context where a very prominent feminist blog had a prolonged discussion about whether trans people not disclosing their trans status is equivalent to RAPING PEOPLE.
People seriously made that argument. It is a repulsive argument, and it premised on a belief that trans people are not the gender we are and that there is something fundamentally bad about our selves and bodies. This is transphobic.
The NYT plays upon very similar ideas, in comparing trans status to having an STD (trans people are like diseases) or being secretly married (trans people are deceptive). This is transphobic.
Just Some Trans Guy
12 Jul 10 at 10:54 am
Jess (and whoever else is reading),
I think the bit of critical reasoning we are missing here is that it is cissexist of you to expect that all your potential dates or partners are cis like you are. That’s an idea that is hugely missing from the original article–the idea that someone is cis until further notice. Why do we assume that? Do we assume trans people wear a scarlet T, or that either trans people are all “readable” (itself a transphobic stereotype) and if we aren’t we are lying just by existing?
I will out my trans status when and if I feel like it in any possible situation. I personally feel that subverts cissexism just a little bit because of this dictum that states HONEST PEOPLE REVEAL TRANS STATUS IMMEDIATELY.
Well, maybe “honest people” don’t expect everyone else is CIS like they are.
The possessing of a history that is always within the cis narrative is a huge privilege.
jayinchicago
12 Jul 10 at 11:06 am
Yeah, good points, Just Another Trans Guy and Jay.
That column is pulling some total bullshit when it comes to equating a trans person’s necessary caution for their SAFETY with those things. He should put himself at risk just to go on a date, before he’s even worked out if there’s anything there? And even though she’s made the call that she doesn’t want to be with him (which, ok, transphobic in the way she describes it but who cares, basically), she wants to *keep* making that choice for him. Out of a fear for other people’s.. what? Safety (the thing about him DATING OTHER WOMAN ZOMG)? Mores? Ironic that *he’s* the one being glossed as harmful.
Indeed, the implicit “trans people are deceptive” narrative at work RELIES on the cissexist notion that trans people are not their sexes.
Because, if you *don’t* share that idea, the idea is nonsensical. Why did you say you are a man.. when you are really a man?
queenemily
12 Jul 10 at 11:36 am
“I don’t owe anyone an apology for expressing an opinion about the journalistic merit of this blog. I’m not personally derailing anyone.”
To my understanding, this blog is more of a trans-centered safe space, rather than a journalism blog or an education- or ally-centered space – although obviously it’s a difficult thing to define and maintain the atmosphere of a blog.
On topic – at this point in my life, as a non-passing transman, I appreciate the support of my cis friends when they correct pronoun usage by people who aren’t familiar with my identity, but this isn’t nearly equivalent to “outing” me.
My biggest problem with Cohen’s response is that it is phrased in universal terms – ie, everyone deserves privacy – and is completely insensitive to trans-specific safety issues. It’s very naive.
I think it’s also significant that – while the woman writing in refers to her interaction with the man as a “relationship”, she doesn’t actually state how long or on how many occasions they had seen each other. It also seems like her tone is sort of vindictive – his identity was an immediate deal breaker, and she is OVERTLY concerned for the other women he might possibly be dating.
jay
12 Jul 10 at 1:22 pm
Jess,
“I’m sorry for implying that it might be nice for someone like me to be able to be supportive, to what’s going on in the life of someone I’m dating.”
The way you’ve written this implies you have a very specific idea of what it means to be supportive, or at least a very specific idea of what it is that trans people need support for. What if this hypothetical trans partner you were dating didn’t consider their transness as having a relevant impact on their present-day life? Would you be supportive of their experience if they considered their transition to be just a footnote in their personal history? Would you support their desire to treat their history as a non-issue if that is how they understood it? If yes, then why would you have a problem if your partner chose not to tell you about it, or didn’t tell you until later on in your relationship? Perhaps supporting your partner’s decision to not disclose to you is the kind of support they need from you.
ridethegallows
12 Jul 10 at 3:06 pm
[...] Enter the raging fuckery storm that is “dating and disclosure”, an ethics farce perpetrated by a cissexist, homophobic world bound and determined to dehumanize the fuck out of those scary trans people. [...]
Dating And “Disclosure”
12 Jul 10 at 4:31 pm
I’m not sure what you mean by success. Did I piss off a random person on the internet? Oh, all the time. Is my blog taught in university classrooms, discussed at the university level? Yes. I’ve lost count of how many trans people have thanked me for writing what I have and helping them cope with and reject the transphobia they have to deal with every day. I think this is pretty successful for what I set out to do.
Who defines responsibility, who defines this code of conduct? Because it seems to me that asking that a blog about transphobia be careful about not saying anything critical about cis people is contradictory.
The one line you objected to? Ask trans people how many of them have been outed against their will, what kind of gossip spreads about them. You’ll find that cis people who don’t think it’s juicy gossip (or something that needs to be revealed for safety reasons as in the letter to the NYT) are comparatively uncommon.
I don’t care about you personally. I care that cis people have outed me against my will, and I will assume that any cis person is like this because it is important to my safety. Some are not, and it becomes clear as I interact with them, but I do not grant the benefit of the doubt. Don’t be angry at me. This isn’t prejudice. Be angry at the 100 cis people I had to deal with before you who revealed my confidential information without my consent, who treat me like crap because they don’t believe that trans people have valid genders. Who insist that I must really be the sex I was assigned at birth because that’s just the way the world is. This isn’t about you, but about institutionalized cissexism.
As for the letter: Yes, Cohen did tell her not to trumpet it off the rooftops, but he did say that disclosure to friends was fine. He also compared not disclosing to not disclosing having an STD or that you’re cheating on a spouse. He said that the trans man in the letter, by not revealing he was trans, had made himself discreditable because he was dishonest. Your defense of what he said? It’s not accurate. You may think what he said is reasonable, but the fact that cis people think this is reasonable is the problem.
Lisa Harney
12 Jul 10 at 4:32 pm
I was angry when I read this article for so many reasons.
but I’m furious to see how much derail Jess brought to the table. ugh, plz go work out your privilege issues elsewhere.
MHS
12 Jul 10 at 6:37 pm
I do agree that everything’s been said and the derailing needs to stop.
Lisa Harney
12 Jul 10 at 6:40 pm
oh… and anyone else notice her opening sentence?
“I am a straight woman”
MHS
12 Jul 10 at 6:45 pm
Sorry for the derail, Lisa.
“Clearly he thought you’d find it pertinent; that’s why he discreditably withheld it, lest you reject him.”
You know, back in feminist threads of days gone by, the consensus of cis people was that trans people are awful, awful, no good, possible rapists if they don’t disclose that they’re trans before hopping in the sack. I didn’t get the sense from the letter that the letter writer has slept with the guy in question; they were just dating.
Let me be very clear–no trans people is morally obligated to reveal that they are trans, ever. But it’s possible this dude was planning to tell her but not until he was comfortable with her. Or until he was sure the relationship was going somewhere. Or until he’d decided he wanted to sleep with her. Or, whatever, one of the many reasons that any of us decide to reveal something personal to the people with whom we have relationships.
It’s an imprecise science, knowing when the time is right to tell somebody something you want to tell. Which I think is something known to anyone who’s dated.
But is the guy in question given any benefit of the doubt? No. His “withholding” is “discreditable.” His actions have been portrayed and interpreted in the worst possible ways by both the cis letter writer and the cis columnist. Because, protestations to the contrary, being trans in and of itself is seen as deceptive.
Just Some Trans Guy
13 Jul 10 at 6:15 am
It still boggles my mind that no matter how many times this issue rears its head in media, it is always framed as “Should Trans people tell” rather than “Should Cis people ASK?”
It stands to reason that most cis people know whether or not they would object to dating a trans person. And if its something that really means oh so much why WOULDN’T they be in the habit of asking? “I could never date a smoker. Are you a smoker?” See… how hard is that?
Now try “The thought of dating one of those transgenders fills me with disgust. Are you a transgender??” Problem solved before the date even begins! Plus you’ve also done the potential transperson a favor by outing YOURSELF as a closeminded arse.
Why do we never point out that trans people are expected to do all the work to accomodate cis people’s prejudices? This is an unreasonable expectation to have of anyone. “I don’t like this thing I never mentioned, so it’s your responsibility to tell me whether or not you’re one of those things I don’t like”
Talk about hegemony. Not only do cis people retain the power to discriminate against and exclude us, they even have the power to compel us to exclude ourselves.
Jane Laplain
13 Jul 10 at 11:02 am
Problem solved before the date even begins! Plus you’ve also done the potential transperson a favor by outing YOURSELF as a closeminded arse.
This is why they can’t take that approach, I guess. Deep down, they understand that what they’re asking is based on bigotry, and they can’t tarnish their self-image by facing up to that. So instead we get these waffly justifications about “emotional investment” – if you’re genuinely that precious about your emotional capital, I don’t know how you can bear to date anyone, whether trans or cis.
Nick Kiddle
13 Jul 10 at 2:58 pm
Just Some Trans Guy,
You weren’t derailing.
Love the last three comments.
Lisa Harney
13 Jul 10 at 4:38 pm
Thanks so much for this post.
emilymorgan
13 Jul 10 at 4:50 pm
Grrr… I am cis and am annoyed that a cis person is insisting that generalizations about cis people are as damaging as generalizations about trans people. Privilege, privilege, privilege.
Just so everyone knows, this blog is helping me understand how not to contribute to this form of oppression, and to be aware and compassionate. I’m sure there are many more who are reading and learning, though they are silent. There are more people who care, than it seems at times.
Barb
14 Jul 10 at 4:34 pm
Thanks for the post. That NYT column bothered me but I had trouble articulating why; your essay is spot-on.
Max
15 Jul 10 at 12:54 pm
[...] Randy Cohen, “ethicist” (he’s actually a humorist) for the Sunday NYT Magazine wrote that trans people have an ethical obligation to expose themselves to their dates. This has not gone over well with several bloggers in the trans community. Lisa Harney has a particularly clear and incisive critique. [...]
Monday Morning Stepback: Links, A bit more about RomCon and Covers « Read React Review
19 Jul 10 at 4:57 am
I’m a lurking cis woman. All I have to say is disclosure, disclosure, disclosure. Maybe disclosure isn’t the right word. But in this day and age where there are social networking sites, sites like this for ppl sharing oppressions, there is no reason to drawn someone is who doesn’t want to be drawn in. If you meet someone utterly outside of a circle like this, who has never dealt with anything even similar, why would you be expecting specialized knowledge? That’s like me dating an ordinary white guy and expecting Tim Wise. The person has never even heard the words “privilege”, at least in this context, and is indifferent at best to the whole situation. And anyways since you are making it into a safety issue, it is more unsafe in a romantic situation not to disclose early, esp. with a cis man. On the job and in any professional setting disclosure should be a personal decision. But when you’re involved with someone else it is unethical to keep knowledge that influences their life from them. Even if not wanting to date a trans person comes from a purely prejudicial standpoint, it is THEIR choice, and that is being taken if they don’t get the facts. It is not public forum, it is their life, to which you have no rights, and you can’t impose anything on another’s private time.
Why would anyone want to date someone prejudiced against them anyways? I’m not banging down the granddragon’s door.And back to safety, this is potentially a powder keg, regardless of anyone’s feelings on why it shouldn’t be. Is it cis privileged, sure. But in an oppressive culture, survival has to come first.
nocoolname
19 Jul 10 at 9:43 am
Why should I follow the “ethics” of someone who possibly hasn’t heard the word privilege (“in this context”)? That seems like something a purported ethicist should know. Especially before, you know, publishing something dealing with the topic.
Your fear of accidentally dating a trans person is really not something you should aim at trans people on a blog that you well know is for questioning transphobia (see! it’s in the name of the blog!), but I’m sure many people here are glad you aired your cissexist bigotry. Unfortunately we have a lot less identifying info about you than the woman in the humor piece (drat, I mean “ethics question”) had about the man whose trans status she wished to broadcast to the neighborhood.
jayinchicago
19 Jul 10 at 4:25 pm
nocoolname either you need to rephrase some of what you just said or you should do some more reading. in your post just now your reiterating the point that we should somehow be obligated to disclose our trans status before were comfortable, I think most trans people would advocate sharing early, it’s the implication that we should be morally obligated to share (often with the implication that it needs to happen before the first date) and that by not were somehow being deceivers liars or what have you.
the second major problem I have is the way you refer to social networking and the gall of bringing in some one else who isn’t a trans activist. because you know, it’s not like I read sci-fi, work in the tech support industry so clearly I’d never have a romantic interest in some one from those circles, no being a transsexual is my only character trait, and I should be perfectly happy with that and very critical of trans people who date outside of this circle.
venatus
19 Jul 10 at 4:35 pm
@nocoolname
I feel like I’m going insane. How many times do I have to say this?? Why am I not being heard??
CIS PEOPLE, IF IT’S THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU THAT YOUR DATE **NOT** BE TRANS THEN ASK FIRST!! TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR OWN DATING LIFE AND ASK A SIMPLE FREAKING QUESTION!!
If this were 1960 maaaaaaybe it would be reasonable to expect a trans person to disclose that because the concept was so rare and mysterious at the time. But that was THEN. EVERYBODY HAS HEARD OF TRANSPEOPLE BY NOW!! It is common knowledge that we exist and that we are “out there” somewhere. OoOoOOOOooooo Scary I knoooow!! So if you are afraid of dating one of us unawares, MAKE IT A HABIT TO ASK THE PEOPLE YOU INTEND TO DATE BEFORE YOU GO OUT!!!! ITS REALLY EASY TO AVOID A TRANNIE IN YOUR BED I PROMISE!!
I’m sorry for the ALL CAPS shouting. But seriously! GROW UP and add three simple words to your dating vocabulary… “Are you transgender?”
OUR LIVES, TRANS LIVES, don’t exactly revolve around fooling you. We are really quite busy with trying not to get beaten and murdered for leaving the house, thank you. I know you would appreciate it if I didn’t look like the kind of person you’d accidentally want to F*CK, but I can’t help what I look like anymore than I can help what you like looking at. Your liking me enough to date is YOUR problem not mine. If I hold off from telling you my personal business, don’t think I’m trying to get one over on you. I’m merely wondering…. “Can you be trusted with this info that could easily get me killed? Are you going freak out and lunge at me if I tell you? Are you going track me down at my job and get me fired? Are you going to get me kicked out of my house? Are you going to tell random people about me and get me stalked by some weirdo??” THESE are my reasons for not volunteering my trans history to you. I have better things to do than “fool” people into sleeping with me. I’m too busy trying not to get fired (AGAIN) or bashed (AGAIN) or publically humiliated (AGAIN). or stalked (AGAIN).. I simply can’t afford to let everybody who would like to know my business know it. Pearls before swine, they say.
YOU have nothing to complain about on this score cis people. Nothing nothing nothing. STOP WHINING. STOP FRETTING. Your privilege sickens me. I find your reckless disregard for MY safety and my privacy HORRIFYING. Please tell me how to avoid the likes of YOU in this world and I will be more than happy to give you the wide berth you ask of me!!!
Jane Laplain
19 Jul 10 at 9:59 pm
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that it was never appropriate to expect trans people to disclose to make cis people comfortable. Not in 1960 any more than it is now.
The question of whether to disclose belongs to trans people. Not to cis people.
Lisa Harney
19 Jul 10 at 10:05 pm
Amen, Lisa. I just wanted to make a point that the time of cis people having any “reasonable” cultural expectation that it’s up to us transfolk to explain our freakish selves to them is LOOOOONG since past.
If the problem were **really** about being unpleasantly “surprised” by finding out your date is trans then cis people WOULD already be asking. But that’s not really the problem is it?
The REAL problem is that a trans person refusing to disclose not only robs the cis person of their “right” to assume that everybody is cis, but also the “right” to decide whether or not they would “deign” to be seen with one of us.
Perhaps what they would prefer is for trans persons to immediately confess our trannie shame, then prostrate ourselves at their feet, begging their pardon, thanking such “tolerant” and “openminded” cis admirers like them for even considering going out with somebody like us.
Gag.
Jane Laplain
19 Jul 10 at 11:33 pm
Looking over my replies in this thread, I’m realizing I’m shouting alot and coming across like Raging Bull. I really don’t just yell at cis people I promise. But when I see blatant cis privilege like what has been posted in the article and in the comments, cis people casually suggesting I ultimately risk my very life to make others more comfortable, it enrages me.
Any cis lurkers here wondering why so many trans people are so angry, its because we, as transpersons in a cis dominated world, are literally undersiege. I do not hyperbolize. Many if not MOST of us live with a certain level of violence, fear, public humiliation, and general social instability that you don’t begin to fathom, and apparently don’t intend to. “Who cares how much you have to lose.. I want to KNOW, dammit.” That sort of attitude.
I would hope that any cis person lurking here of all places was at least in the “pondering the REALITY NOT JUST THEORY of trans lives” stage of their curiosity. And yet somehow, some of you clearly aren’t. You claim to want to learn about us, claim to be curious about what makes us who we are. Then you turn around and tell us we’re not working hard enough to make you comfortable with the fact that we exist? That, to me, is an even bigger outrage than if you simply wrote us off from the start.
QT, thanks to Lisa, is a trans safe space. We cherish our trans safe spaces online because offline it is nearly impossible to create a safe space for trans people in 3D world. Try going to a website that ISN’T safe for transfolk and you will read a long list of the things that people actually do and say TO OUR FACES in our 3d lives. Our very physical existence often puts us in grave danger. We need this space for our own sanity, and we NEED our privacy online AND off much more than you need to know whats in our pants or in our pasts.
If you don’t think its important to prioritize trans needs and trans feelings in a trans safe space, then why on earth are you lurking here?
K. Im done. Sorry to hijack, that was the last one I promise.
Jane Laplain
20 Jul 10 at 12:08 am
@nocoolname: “in this day and age where there are social networking sites, sites like this for ppl sharing oppressions, there is no reason to drawn someone is who doesn’t want to be drawn in.”
…sounds remarkably like “I have concluded for trans people that I think I know better than them how to manage their dating lives.” it’s the kind of comment that reeks of the cisgender privilege that we both share, and unfortunately, you’re using that privilege to condemn the actions of trans people and make vague statements that violence that befalls them all too often would be their own fault if they don’t disclose. this is not a spectre you should scare up lightly given that the number of trans people, especially trans women and at that especially trans women of color who meet death by homicide, reported as such or nor, is absolutely f**king galling.
i am very close to very real trans people in my life, not theoretical straw-people who can be easily dismissed. i’m way more worried that some stupid cis f**kup is going to kill them than i am about whether or not they’ve talked about their genitalia with a dating partner. i’m not scared that the reason for violence is that they are trans; in fact, the reason for violence against trans people is the inability of cis people to deal with people who aren’t like us. it’s like blaming my forebears for violence against them because they were black, or blaming gay folks for getting bashed; just because it involves trans people doesn’t suddenly make it okay.
i suggest, nocoolname, that you consider what you can do with your privilege: you can be accountable and educate others like us, or you can distantly pass judgment on others in an oppressed class.
violet (not violet)
20 Jul 10 at 6:56 am
[...] This is how cis columnists talk about how trans people are discreditable and dishonest if we don’t admit up front that we’re trans, or at least say so within the first few dates. This is how cis people describe that having sex with a trans person who doesn’t disclose is akin to rape or exposure to STDs. Cis people, on the contrary, are never expected to disclose their transphobia and unwillingness to date a trans person on any date. Cis people never feel the urge to say, “Oh, by the way? If you’re trans, I will bash your head in with a fire extinguisher.” And yet who takes the blame? [...]
Disclosure, Trans Panic, and Ciscentric Narratives of Honesty at Questioning Transphobia
23 Jul 10 at 6:02 pm
[...] way. Thankfully, it’s been thoroughly and deservedly deconstructed in numerous responses (see Questioning Transphobia, The Bay Area Reporter, Feministing and Bilerico, to name but a [...]
Josie Romero: daughter, sister, trans child at Questioning Transphobia
25 Jul 10 at 6:14 am
[...] way. Thankfully, it’s been thoroughly and deservedly deconstructed in numerous responses (see Questioning Transphobia, The Bay Area Reporter, Feministing and Bilerico, to name but a [...]
Josie Romero: daughter, sister, trans child « bird of paradox
25 Jul 10 at 6:15 am
Cislurker here, and a late response, but I agree that trans people are under no responsibility to disclose that that it is the dating partners responsibility to know their own requirements and ask about them beforehand. Given the violence and discrimination experienced by trans people, it is not surprising that they would be reluctant to disclose. If someone is ignorant of transgender issues, that is their own problem. When I read blogs like this one, I approach it as a listener/learner and do not believe that it should be framed to avoid potential offense to me–it’s not about me. The negative statements about cis people struck me as true to my own experience, and not directed at cis people who would be reading this blog in particular, but cis people in general.
Jennifer
26 Jul 10 at 3:14 pm
Just a note that I won’t approve comments that compare sex with trans people to being exposed to STDs. I don’t have a problem with disagreement, but I do have a problem with bullshit analogies.
Just to be clear, this is a problem because it’s stigmatizing people who have STDs, and then trying to expand that stigma to cover trans people.
Lisa Harney
13 Aug 10 at 3:05 am
Another cis woman lurker here. Just wanted to show my support for the “disclosure is NOT the transperson’s responsibility” side of the argument. And also to tell Jane Laplain in particular that she is awesome; taking on clueless bigots is way above and beyond the call of duty, and Jane, you do it with class and style. In a better world world NOBODY would have to deal with this stuff and your outrage is the most noble and well-stated kind of outrage.
And to anyone arguing that “transpeople not disclosing = dishonesty”: READ MORE. All the allegedly “reasonable” points of this silly argument have already been addressed and dismantled numerous times, including ON THIS VERY PAGE (I shouldn’t have been surprised at how quickly the first clueless post had turned up). Your refusal to make even the slightest effort to step outside your own heads is incredibly disrespectful and lazy. It’s NOT the job of people without your privilege to make you feel comfortable, the world does not revolve around you, etc.
numol
13 Aug 10 at 6:14 pm
[...] Full post here by Lisa Harney and I strongly suggest reading it. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)The ideal date night…tater tots for two?Learn to date before you start to relate from → Gender, The Internet, What? ← Stimulus Response 2 Comments leave one → [...]
Shiny Ethical Trans Dating WTF « Sophisticate Blues
16 Aug 10 at 9:22 am
Oh, gee. Thanks NYT reporter. Fucking thanks.
Perhaps I would wait to see if they seem to be the kind of person who would assault me upon finding out my transness before I disclose it to them? And then if they are then I would just break away from them and not disclose it? But nooo it’s the most important thing that you should be told everything isn’t it
Kit
7 Aug 11 at 9:40 am
So I’m a closet genderqueer kid and I agree: I’m not required to tell anyone anything until they ask. Since no one’s asked about my gender or perferred pronouns, I’m under no obligation to tell. Simple as that.
Seriously cis people…just ask. It’s the POLITE thing for YOU to do!
Yoshi-chan
1 Apr 12 at 2:03 pm
Alright, so maybe it may have to do with fact I’m not out, but still: If I was out, I’d much rater have you come up to me and ask me my preferred pronouns.
That being said, which pronoun sounds better: “She” or “Ze”?
Yoshi-chan
1 Apr 12 at 2:05 pm
*Rather*
Yoshi-chan
1 Apr 12 at 2:05 pm