Greetings From Asia.
There is always a connection between the trans community around the globe. We face the same prejudice, the same bias, the same discrimination, the same hatred, and at times the same violence. People cannot seem to accept gender variance, and although the limitations on understanding of the gender binary may differ from country to country, most still choose to base gender on just a small part of the human body, the sex organ. It is my personal belief that the more obsessed the country is with sex, the less people in that country understands and accepts transgender people. Some even ignore we exist.
In some backward countries, and perhaps even in some states at the US, it may boil down to the question of manhood. The male species is viewed as dominant and more superior than females. In my life, I have heard questions asked among our society about trans people; for trans women, “Why do they want to be women when they can be men?” For trans men, “They can never be real men.” All of these are based on the ‘existence’ and ‘strength’ of sex organs. Unfortunately, I come from a country with such mentality.
In my country, ‘jantina’ is the malay word used to describe sex. Gender, as we know it, does not exist in Malaysia. And when it is mentioned, it also means sex, based on that organ. My country is a model Islamic nation. It persecutes trans people on the basis of their identity. It punishes trans women for ‘dressing up as women’. It has moral policing that treats most trans women as prostitutes. It voids trans people as ever existing in the media. And when we are mentioned, trans women = transvestites = deviant cross-dresser = bad, bad criminals. Trans men hardly get attention, even any mention in this country.
Our government refuses to explore current medical consensus in regards to trans people. Religion trumps over Harry Benjamin Syndrome. Myth is truer than Gender Identity Disorder. Faith means transsexualism does not exist. As we attempt to fight off bias and pseudo-science from creeping into the APA’s DSM-V, in Malaysia we are not even considered within this psychological framework. This country is so behind times that they do not even know or heard of World Health Organization’s opinion on trans people.
I am lucky I am not Malay. If I am, I stand a chance to be one of the 80% of trans people in Malaysia who are sex workers. Of course, some of them have full time jobs. But there is no recognition of trans people in Malaysia. So there is no regulation for those trans people who resort to any method possible, to get their greedy hands on cash to splurge on hormones without care or doctor’s advice. I mean really overdosing themselves to the point of insanity. When news of this reach the media, the trans community gets the blame. Because of that, people here assume trans people are hormone-popping addicts.
I am blessed to be currently clear off all the worse things that can happen to a trans person, and still am floating above that line of Malaysian transgender stereotypes. It is not easy being mislabeled ‘transvestite’ every time we are on the newspapers by writers who lack better vocabulary. It is frightening to hear stories of the brutality towards Malay trans women by religious authorities. It is saddening to hear some of my sister’s passing, some by murder and some by suicide, year after year. But I promised myself I am going to write about all these, and let people know what is going on at this side of the world.
My last article for Ex-Gay Watch (XGW) was around 6 months back, and I hardly write on my own blogsite, though I hope to get back to work on XGW. I do know that I have to commit more time and energy into writing, which is my passion. There are a lot of stories to share, both from the ex-gay survivors’ perspective and as a trans individual living here with so-called asian values’ scorn and religious fundamentalism demeaning trans people.
Knowing that there are people wanting to hear a trans Asian gal’s rant is perhaps an encouragement for me to climb above my depressed state and regroup my life again after a series of personal setbacks. This blogsite has always been a good read, so I am proud and honoured to be invited as a guest writer for Questioning Transphobia. It is a joy to be in the company of brilliant writers and commenters voicing out our hearts, coming of age. I am known to be a melancholic person, but I will try to crack a joke or two. Thank you.
Anyway.
Hello, I am Yuki Choe.
Thanks for posting, Yuki.
Looking forward to further posts. :)
Lisa Harney
16 May 10 at 8:18 pm
While their are real risks to accessing hormones without the support of medical doctors, I am not sure your phasing is helpful, for many people self medication is the only/the best options, and phrases like
“get their greedy hands” doesn’t help, and trans people will always get blamed for existing, whether or not we are nice and play along with the rules.
I realize this comment is pretty negitive and I am sorry for this, I hope to hear more from you but I think it is important to challage the idea that (some) trans people are ruining it for the rest of us, whether or not they consistently make ideal choices.
genderqueer2genderqueer
16 May 10 at 10:51 pm
Yeah, the problem isn’t that trans women are getting hormones from anyone but doctors, but that barriers to getting transition-related medical treatments are so high that so many trans women end up getting hormones from other sources.
Lisa Harney
16 May 10 at 11:00 pm
“So there is no regulation for those trans people who resort to any method possible, to get their greedy hands on cash to splurge on hormones without care or doctor’s advice. I mean really overdosing themselves to the point of insanity.”
genderqueer2genderqueer, please read the line after the “greedy” sentence. I am refering to those who overdose themselves with no regards to their health until it becomes an addiction and affects their quality of life. I am refering to the trans women’s behaviour, which is caused by governments that are invalidating our existence here in Asia. And even though it is important to challenge the idea of being painted with the same brush, each one of us also have responsibility to do what is right for the community.
Yuki Choe
16 May 10 at 11:15 pm
As a trans sex worker, I find your assumption that no person would want to be a sex worker fairly offensive:
“I am lucky I am not Malay. If I am, I stand a chance to be one of the 80% of trans people in Malaysia who are sex workers. Of course, some of them have full time jobs.”
READ: “I am lucky I am not a sex worker.”
MY REALITY: “I am fucking happy I am a trans sex worker.”
Guess what – for some of us being a sex worker IS a “full time job”. There is nothing wrong with that.
There is this assumption that sex work is a “last resort” for trans women, and that all trans women sex workers have had no choice. That is completely wrong. I am sure there are trans women sex workers who would prefer not to be a sex worker, but that does not mean it is true for all trans women sex workers. This idea that it is somehow wrong for trans women to be sex workers to pay for hormones, surgery etc is whorephobic and offensive. We don’t think it is wrong for trans women to work in other jobs to pay their medical expenses. Sex work is work!
Mish Glitter Pony
17 May 10 at 2:07 am
Yuki Choe: “each one of us also have responsibility to do what is right for the community.”
It is this very idea that has lead to trans people policing other trans people’s identities. The idea that if you aren’t “normal enough” or you don’t “fit in” then you are hurting your community.
That is bullshit.
Mish Glitter Pony
17 May 10 at 2:08 am
Mish Glitter Pony,
If you are f*****g happy to be a sex worker, do feel so. That is your reality as you said. You have all the right in the world to determine what you want to do with your body. Likewise, I have the right to the determination that sex work is wrong. Arguing with you on this would just be like an atheist arguing with a Christian. So, do what you think is right.
Again, the sentence, “each one of us also have responsibility to do what is right for the community”. If you think you are contributing to the growth of acceptance and fight for rights for trans people by affirming that “sex work is work!”, that is your responsibility to do what is right. If you think that getting sensitive with the views of other cultures such of yourself, like in Asia, gives you the right to consider it “bullshit”, that is also your responsibility. In fact, do what you want to do.
The fact us, we all have the right to self determination. But not in Asia. In Asia, most of us do not have rights. We cannot pronounce “sex work is work!” like you do. Countless malay sex workers have been brutalized by religious authorities even before they reach the violence behind bars. I am chinese. Not malay muslim. So are you saying that I should count myself unlucky to be not part of the malay muslim trans people that gets abused and beaten up regularly? The responsibility mentioned here is fact that in Asia, we need more people to NOT be sex workers. When I get interviewed on newspapers, I have to hide with my pen name ‘Yuki’ and not show my photo to not risk losing my job. Why? My very existence in Malaysia is considered something beyond invalidity.
The responsibility is simply, before you do something, think of the consequences that will befall the trans community. Me getting jailed for speaking up publicly will not help the community. Those two friends of mine who committed suicide after a bout of depression and mood swings due to hormonal overdose will not help the community. The trans people on the streets running away like rats all across the red light district being chased by religious authorities will not help the community. Trans people being forced to cut their hair, rehabilitate and “repent” will not help the community. Etc. Please consider the different cultures we are in. We in Asia should be at least 50 years behind the United States in terms of transgender rights. Whatever we do here, counts, but the journey will be very slow right up to my old age.
Yuki Choe
17 May 10 at 2:48 am
You state that:
“The fact us, we all have the right to self determination. But not in Asia. In Asia, most of us do not have rights. We cannot pronounce “sex work is work!” like you do.”
That is a lie. There are many sex worker advocacy organisations around Asia that pronounce “sex work is work!”. There are the following sex worker organisations that I know of off the top of my head: Empower Foundation in Thailand, Zi Teng in Hong Kong, numerous sex worker organisations in India, and many trans organisations that support sex work.
It is not your place to tell people that should not be sex workers. Sex work is work.
Mish Glitter Pony
17 May 10 at 2:58 am
The fact that you liken sex workers to rats shows your true colours:
“The trans people on the streets running away like rats all across the red light district being chased by religious authorities will not help the community.”
Mish Glitter Pony
17 May 10 at 3:21 am
So, what IS right for the community, Yuki? Im more interested in hearing about that.
Tman69
17 May 10 at 3:26 am
Dear Glitter,
Try to come to my country, stand as a sex worker amongst the red light district here for one week. Then decide whether I am being biased. Oh yes, you will have better luck in Thailand where sex work is legal. Still, you can try there. You can stand around at Changi in Singapore too. See where that leads you. I do not know what is your purpose in bashing me for being truthful. Again, if you feel sex work is your game, then go ahead. Again, no one is stopping you. Neither can you force me to share your beliefs. The end.
Tman, your right here IS to be recognized as having rights. Your right here IS to be able to exist. Most Asian countries still have strong so called conservative ‘Asian Values’. Your right IS to defy that, the fact that existence has nothing to do with right or wrong. In muslim based nations, such as in Malaysia and Indonesia, your right IS to fight to have your right to be a human being, and to live as one without prejudice and discrimination. The right to be treated civilly. The right to be a citizen of the nation just the way you are. Bear in mind, we are still the same.
This is the first time I am being bombarded for my opinion on sex work. In sex work or not, we will still have a lot to face in this world. Conquering oppression towards trans people should be our priority. Not arguing over work. I do not like stunt work as well. Someone wish to bash me up on that too? Sigh.
yukichoe
17 May 10 at 3:53 am
“Conquering oppression towards trans people should be our priority.”
Our priority should be conquering ALL oppressions. I am not ONLY a trans person, I am many other things, including a sex worker. Why should I drop all the other things that make me, me, and focus on the trans part of me?
“Try to come to my country, stand as a sex worker amongst the red light district here for one week. Then decide whether I am being biased.”
Nowhere did I say sex work in your country is easy, or is not dangerous. But you are furthering the stigma and discrimination against sex workers by saying trans people should not be sex workers.
“I do not like stunt work as well. Someone wish to bash me up on that too? ”
That is a poor example. Stunt work is not discriminated against and legislated against like sex work is. Stunt work does not have the level of stigma and discrimination attached that sex work does.
Mish Glitter Pony
17 May 10 at 3:59 am
OMG Glitter Pony, why are you taking my words out of context? Can we not talk about work, dear? If you are comfortable with your work, why are you showing so much disdain to the fact that most trans people do not share your beliefs? What are you trying to prove? If you wish to excel in your field, go ahead. I am not your mother to control your opinions, and neither should you force your opinion unto others. So chill.
Tman, what is right for the community is to stop squabbling over non issues like sex work, or whether the person is op or non-op or pre-op, or whether the person wish to be closeted in stealth or not. Issues will vary from nation to nation, from trans men to trans women. What is right is to do the best in our capacity to fight for our rights, to live as who we are in dignity and in love. All trans people are in the end diversed. Just like any other human beings.
Yuki Choe
17 May 10 at 4:03 am
…I don’t think you can become “addicted” to hormones.
Jack Light
17 May 10 at 4:23 am
Lol. I wish Jack. I wish. It may vary from individual to individual. I am not. Many in the circle here does. And some even stopped because they cannot concentrate on work. I wonder is it because of an Asian’s much smaller frame vs the gross intake. Can anyone fill me in on that?
Yuki Choe
17 May 10 at 4:30 am
I did read the line after it, which is why I commented about the risks of hormones (or other drugs).
Taking high levels of drugs, which cause side effects like lost of concentration is not the same as being addicted to drugs.
Mish work is important as you tell people like them and me that we are harming the trans community for speaking about our lives, I am not a sex worker, I hate that trans women are pressured into sex work though oppression and lack of opportunity, however if doesn’t help a trans women, who hates working on the streets which you describe to be told that her fight to be recognised as the women she is, with what she has, is bad for the cause of trans people, if you asked her, what do you think she would say that she wanted.
genderqueer2genderqueer
17 May 10 at 5:29 am
I will make a some things very clear:
I disagree with sex work; for those who do not wish to be associated with sex work at all, the existence of sex workers do further the stereotype that trans women are sex workers, especially in a country like mine. Please spare a thought for trans people that are totally against sex work and wishes no connection. Respect them.
But I will defend your rights to do whatever you want with your body. Even if it means sex work. It is a personal validation. Everyone has differing views. You simply cannot go all gung ho on sex workers rights and totally ignore those who do not wish to be painted with the same brush. Please understand. However, I will still advocate for sex workers rights simply because that is their rice bowl.
And yes, some countries are backward. You do not know my country like I do. They DO skip food just for hormones. Perhaps the addiction part comes along with other drugs.
It is not my intention to offend anybody. I am just another Asian trans person struggling just to survive in this Muslim oriented country. Please understand. Whatever my opinions, I still defend all of trans people’s rights. Because it fulfils our needs. Because we are in the end, a family.
Yuki Choe
17 May 10 at 6:07 am
Yuki,
This site is great in that it gets a lot of people talking who — historically — don’t necessarily get along well, in the same room :} I note that folks have taken issue in the comments with one or more of the incidental observations you made in your post. But I’m just writing to say how much I appreciated waking up and seeing your post today! As a trans woman who has lived in different places in the world, I’m very appreciative of the ways we share commonality across borders and nationalities, and the genuine differences which remain (and what both things tell us about ourselves). One of the things I appreciate most about being trans (along with a bunch of stuff I’m not real keen on, lol) is that it lets me see issues shared around the world, not just in the corners of it I know best…anyway, looking forward to more of your posts. Don’t let the picky folks narrow your focus too much!
Jess
17 May 10 at 6:09 am
This is the last comment I am going to make because this is going nowhere.
“I disagree with sex work”.
This is whorephobia. It is wrong. To say you are entitled to your opinion is like saying transphobic people have the right to say “I think trans people are mentally ill and should have therapy rather than take hormones”. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH SEX WORK. I don’t care if you think there is something wrong – because that opinion isn’t acceptable. Certain opinions, like racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, ableism and whorephobia ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE. This is the same as saying you “disagree with gay rights and I am entitled to my opinion.”
“for those who do not wish to be associated with sex work at all, the existence of sex workers do further the stereotype that trans women are sex workers”
That is NOT THE FAULT OF TRANS SEX WORKERS. There are a WHOLE BUNCH of stereotypes of trans women that aren’t true, but this is not the fault of the trans women who do fit into that stereotype. Maybe you would argue that no trans woman should wear makeup, or heels, or be feminine, because that is the stereotype? This is similar to saying that feminine gay men shouldn’t act feminine because then everybody thinks gay men are feminine.
“totally against sex work and wishes no connection. Respect them.”
Why should I respect people who blame me for problems of a transphobic society? Why should I respect people who act like I don’t have any agency? Why should I respect people who look down on me because I am a sex worker? I don’t respect people who are whorephobic, sexist, racist, ableist, homophobic and otherwise fucked up.
“You simply cannot go all gung ho on sex workers rights and totally ignore those who do not wish to be painted with the same brush.”
That doesn’t really make any sense. That is like saying we shouldn’t go all gung ho on trans rights because there are some sections of the trans community that think we should shut up and be quiet.
Mish Glitter Pony
17 May 10 at 6:33 am
The best way to reach across cultures is clearly to grab their arms and pull them in close for a good verbal beating.
Go go trans solidarity, comrade!
Bring on the re-education camps.
cigfran
17 May 10 at 7:32 am
Jess, thank you. You are probably the only mind that understands diversity. I would choose not to respond anymore to people like Glitter Pony for the simple reason that for them, sex work is important to them to the point those who disagree are branded whorephobics, as we are threatening their bread and butter. I have no respect, and I doubt society in general will, people who impose their opinion upon others. I never stopped her from being a sex worker. She seems to be forcing me to accept it. That is the problem with the world today. There must be the ultimate opinion. I do not wish to talk to people who impose their values as superior to all others. If they think sex workers is greater than transgener rights in general, so be it. I have no time for it.
Yuki Choe
17 May 10 at 8:25 am
Well, duh, except in most of the world it is the only available work for transwomen who decide to transition and can’t hide the fact they’re trans (which may be more complicated than you think in countries where there is no legal provision for an official change of sex, whether before or after surgery). That may be why prostitution is so common among transwomen: those who can’t stand that life don’t transition.
So it’s not really much of a choice, is it? Certainly not for the transwomen in Malaysia, or most of South East Asia, Latin America, South and Eastern Europe and so on.
Except for the fact that the majority of people who practice it are marginalised and excluded, exploited and abused, persecuted and criminalised, barred from medical services, education or a pension in their old age, have exactly zero chance of any social mobility whatsoever and can never leave the trade of their own free will, since they didn’t enter it of their own free will in the first place.
Yeah, apart from that everything’s hunky dory with sex work.
YGQ
17 May 10 at 8:52 am
Few questions anyone within the LGBT circle may ask:
So how would the advancement of sex workers benefit the transgender community as a whole?
What is considered success for a sex worker that contributes to the betterment of trans communities worldwide?
What the future holds for the best sex workers among the community in terms of purpose and meaning in life?
But I still would defend their right. It is in the end, their choice. I will say nothing else.
Yuki Choe
17 May 10 at 9:22 am
I realize I’m a guy commenting on a post that centers trans female/trans women’s issues and lives. So if I fuck up, please tell me.
That said, I can see some points both sides have made:
A lot of women, trans and cis, don’t have a choice in whether they enter sex work. Is it really a choice if there are no other means of employment available because your very existence is criminalized and seen as a burden? We in the Global North would do well to remember this, even if we can name a lot of examples of pro-sex work organizations based in the Global South. Not everyone has access to those resources, and not all of those resources are friendly to trans women; I’d guess that very few of them are.
This doesn’t make sex work inherently wrong, it means that the solution is manifold: provide a way for those who do not want to be sex workers to access the education and resources necessary to enter other professions, push for legal and societal acceptance of trans women, and legalize sex work in such a way that the laws and law enforcement are compelled to protect the workers rather than punish them disproportionately and let possible/probable abusers off the hook (or worse yet, allow the abusers to be law enforcers). It is called the oldest profession for a reason, and regardless of one’s opinions of its morality and whether it hurts or benefits women, sex work will never go away. The more one tries end it, the more it will be driven underground, which will only serve to attract even more depraved and sick fucks in the form of pimps, traffickers, and sadistic bastards looking for someone(s) to brutalize.
The one issue I do take with your post, Yuki, is the idea of being compelled to do (or not do) x, y, and z for ‘the good of the community’. My transition was a personal decision. My life is mine alone, even though I, like everyone else, depend on others to survive. In the few spaces where people do know about my status, I don’t constantly consider whether the cis people who are present think better or worse of trans people due to something I do, say, wear, or believe.
Sin Nombre
17 May 10 at 9:51 am
I am tired of explaining things to people who are not listening. Therefore, I choose to remain silent. Everyone is entitled to live their lives the best way they can. That is all.
Yuki Choe
17 May 10 at 10:13 am
[...] Greetings From Asia. (Questioning Transphobia) “There is always a connection between the trans community around the globe. We face the same prejudice, the same bias, the same discrimination, the same hatred, and at times the same violence. People cannot seem to accept gender variance, and although the limitations on understanding of the gender binary may differ from country to country, most still choose to base gender on just a small part of the human body” [...]
Global Feminist Link Love: May 10-16 « Gender Across Borders
17 May 10 at 10:52 am
“There is always a connection between the trans community around the globe. We face the same prejudice, the same bias, the same discrimination, the same hatred, and at times the same violence.”
Totally, It always bugs me when people here (usually talking about Thailand) say something like “Oh, there are some places where trans people aren’t discriminated against at all!”. ‘Cause that’s just a racist and transphobic stereotype which certainly doesn’t help trans people in Thailand who have it rough.
As tempting as it is to get sucked into the sex worker argument. I don’t see it going anywhere useful here. I’ll just say it’s important to fight for all trans people, whether they’re not a sex worker, or a sex worker (and whether or not our classist transphobic society gave them much of a choice in the matter), or have prescription drugs, or self medicate.
Princess Backpack
17 May 10 at 11:59 am
I am also very glad to see this post- there is much missing from discussions of transphobia among people all generally in the same few countries.
a transitioned male friend of mine is Malay, but I’ve known little of the situation there except that he says he can’t and will never go back.
as for the sex workers convo… trans women sex workers are not responsible for cis peoples’ negative stereotypes or condemnation of trans women or of sex workers. the real enemy is the one who sees trans women (and trans people generally) as less than human.
MHS
17 May 10 at 2:16 pm
This post is never about sex workers in the first place, and I could not comprehend how it can be dragged into that. Sex work is not exclusive to transgender people. Transgender issues and sex work issues are so different from each other. One is an identity while the other is profession. And I agree that it is not trans people’s fault of getting the sex workers stereotype. Sex work itself is already a negative. And I still stand corrected that being in sex work does further perpetuate negatives on trans people, because of the negatives of the profession.
Forgive my ignorance of what goes on in the States; in Asia especially the South East, sex workers vary from kidnapped children placed into prostitution rings to wives being forced into prostitution by husbands with gambling debts. It is also associated with drugs, broken marriages and promiscuous husbands. Then the rising HIV/AIDS epidemic in Asia.
But still, again, I support the right to self determination. Because everyone needs to have it. Every one has the right to their bodies and lives, and bear their own consequences and responsibilities. Everyone should have the right to make the best of their own lives, free from interference from anybody.
Yuki Choe
17 May 10 at 7:23 pm
Thankyou Yuki for the last post, I want to come back to it before I have more time, but for no just so you know I and at least on other person commenting here is from Australia, for what it is worth.
genderqueer2genderqueer
17 May 10 at 7:48 pm
Edited because I can’t type.
Thankyou Yuki for the last comment, I want to come back to it before I have more time, but for now I and at least one other person commenting here is from Australia, for what it is worth.
genderqueer2genderqueer
17 May 10 at 7:51 pm
Hello Yuki,
Thank you for posting. It is good to hear from trans people from outside of Anglo countries. The challenges that we face as trans people are different around the world and we have a lot to learn from each other. I hope you post again. I live in Seattle, in the USA.
vivian
17 May 10 at 9:11 pm
Oh I just can’t resist…
“Well, duh, except in most of the world it is the only available work for transwomen who decide to transition and can’t hide the fact they’re trans …
So it’s not really much of a choice, is it?”
If that were the case EVERY trans woman would be a sex worker. But they’re not. Sure, SOME may have no other option. But if someone had no other option than to work in fast food, we wouldn’t say “OH NO! SOMEONE RESCUE THEM FROM THE EVIL FAST FOOD INDUSTRY! THEY HAD NO CHOICE!!!”
YGK also said:
” THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH SEX WORK
Except for the fact that the majority of people who practice it are marginalised and excluded, exploited and abused, persecuted and criminalised, barred from medical services, education or a pension in their old age…” blah blah blah
Well guess what? Trans people are “marginalised and excluded, exploited and abused, persecuted and criminalised, barred from medical services…” blah blah blah blah. So I guess that means it must be wrong to be trans and we should stop people from being trans. Oh wait a second. Why don’t we just stop the discrimination, which Yuki and YGK, are perpetuating.
To answer Yuki:
“So how would the advancement of sex workers benefit the transgender community as a whole?”
The majority of trans people who are murdered are POC and sex workers. We can’t simply say “oh, they were murdered because they were trans”. By furthering sex worker rights, trans rights, and the rights of POC we can stop the murder of our trans family! Sex work and trans rights are linked because they are to do with bodily autonomy – that it is MY BODY and MY CHOICE to do what I want and need with it.
Yuki said:
“This post is never about sex workers in the first place, and I could not comprehend how it can be dragged into that.”
Because your initial article contained whorephobia and I called you out on it. And then you defended it. It would be the same if your original article contained sexism, racism, ableism etc.
Yuki said:
“sex workers vary from kidnapped children placed into prostitution rings to wives being forced into prostitution by husbands with gambling debts. It is also associated with drugs, broken marriages and promiscuous husbands. Then the rising HIV/AIDS epidemic in Asia.”
Do you have any proof/evidence for this? or are you just buying into the whole sex slavery rhetoric? I am not denying that this DOES NOT HAPPEN, but there is no good research into how wide spread it is, and the anti-sex work rhetoric that this comes from affects ALL sex workers, including those who choose it. I find the last statements particularly offensive. These arguments are also levelled against the gay, queer and trans communities that we are the cause of all these social ills. These arguments are unfounded.
Mish Glitter Pony
17 May 10 at 9:42 pm
Glitter Pony, good to have you back.
However, you failed to answer any of my questions.
Your attempt to answer one has NOTHING to do with trans rights and EVERYTHING to do with sex workers rights. SO shall we do the questions again?
1) So how would the advancement of sex workers benefit the transgender community as a whole?
2) What is considered success for a sex worker that contributes to the betterment of trans communities worldwide?
3) What the future holds for the best sex workers among the community in terms of purpose and meaning in life?
Tell you what, let us add tw0 more.
4) How do you see your sex worker life when you turn 50?
5) What are the benefits of sex work?
DO NOT RUN AWAY FROM THESE QUESTIONS.
Avoiding them would just make YOU internally whorephobic.
As for your arguments FOR prostitution:
***
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_of_children
Asia
In Cambodia, it has been estimated that about a third of all prostitutes are under 18.[4]
The exact number of child-prostitutes in Thailand is not known, but Thailand’s Health System Research Institute reports that children in prostitution make up 40% of prostitutes in Thailand.[5]
***
How about this one?
***
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking
“Asia
It has been estimated that at least 200,000 to 225,000 women and children are trafficked from Southeast Asia annually. Most of the trafficking destinations are within the region (60 percent are major cities of the region; 40 percent are outside the region).[35]
In Asia, Japan is the major destination country for trafficked women, especially from the Philippines and Thailand. In Japan the prosperous entertainment market has created a huge demand for commercial sexual workers, and such demand is being met by trafficking women and their children from the Philippines, Colombia and Thailand. Women are forced into street prostitution, stripping and live sex acts.[36] The US State Department has rated Japan as either a ‘Tier 2’ or a ‘Tier 2 Watchlist’ country every year since 2001 in its annual Trafficking in Persons reports. Both these ratings implied that Japan was (to a greater or lesser extent) not fully compliant with minimum standards for the elimination of human trafficking trade. There are currently an estimated 300,000 women and children involved in the sex trade throughout Southeast Asia.[37] It is common that Thai women are lured to Japan and sold to Yakuza-controlled brothels where they are forced to work off their price.[38][39] By the late 1990s, UNICEF estimated that there are 60,000 child prostitutes in the Philippines, describing Angeles City brothels as “notorious” for offering sex with children. UNICEF estimates many of the 200 brothels in the notorious Angeles City offer children for sex.[40]
Many of the Iraqi women fleeing the Iraq War are turning to prostitution, while others are trafficked abroad, to countries like Syria, Jordan, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates and Turkey[citation needed]. In Syria alone an estimated 50,000 Iraqi refugee girls and women, many of them widows, had been forced into prostitution as of 2007[update].[41] Cheap Iraqi prostitutes have helped to make Syria a popular destination for sex tourists. The clients come from wealthier countries in the Middle East.[42] High prices are offered for virgins.[43]
As many as 200,000 Nepali girls, many under 14, have been sold into the sex slavery in India. Nepalese women and girls, especially virgins, are favored in India because of their light skin.[44][45][46]”
***
It just takes a simple google search to find TONS more research. The wiki pages alone has TONS of research within its external links. But of course, ignorance and denial is so blissful for you.
Yuki Choe
17 May 10 at 11:02 pm
I cannot help but to post Glitter Pony’s ridiculous non-answer to one question again.
— To answer Yuki:
“So how would the advancement of sex workers benefit the transgender community as a whole?”
The majority of trans people who are murdered are POC and sex workers. We can’t simply say “oh, they were murdered because they were trans”. By furthering sex worker rights, trans rights, and the rights of POC we can stop the murder of our trans family! Sex work and trans rights are linked because they are to do with bodily autonomy – that it is MY BODY and MY CHOICE to do what I want and need with it.—
ROTFLMAO! Apologies. In my volunteer work with sex workers, and being a sex worker myself for six months when I was jobless years ago, I had never seen anyone argue from such shaky position with mindless, pointless, non-connection of identity and sex labour.
Her statements has helped me rest my case. :o )
Yuki Choe
17 May 10 at 11:10 pm
Thanks for providing an important perspective on what’s going down in Malaysia in relation to trans*folks.
I think there is a lot in your post that is being ignored, however while I think the culturally specific aspects are missing in a few people’s responses I totally back Mish in saying that sex worker rights cannot be separated from trans* folk rights.
I don’t think any profession can be a choice for every single one of its workers and just wanted to post up a couple of links:
I find this first one to be whorephobic yet it shows how Tasha is more afraid of the police and religious folks getting in her face than others -
http://www.transgendertoday.com/2009/09/07/twilight-life-of-malaysias-muslim-transsexuals/
In the next link there is mention of Slemeh who “heads a transgender support programme in Malaysia that works under the Network of Sex Work Projects (NSWP) – an informal alliance of sex workers and organisations active in 40 countries.”
http://swannet.org/node/1584
http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2009/03/malaysias-muslim-transsexuals-battle.html
Anyway Yuki, looking forward to more of your posts and knowledge.
Claire
17 May 10 at 11:48 pm
Just to clarify Yuki, when I say “there is a lot being ignored” I mean that a few people commenting are ignoring a lot that is in your post.
Claire
17 May 10 at 11:50 pm
Well I am not going to answer you Yuki, because I can’t be bothered wasting my time.
I am glad you find the murder of trans women sex workers of colour so hilarious.
Mish Glitter Pony
18 May 10 at 12:38 am
Glitter Pony, if you are unable to answer, just say so. There is no need to make excuses.
Read your own writing:
“We can’t simply say “oh, they were murdered because they were trans”. By furthering sex worker rights, trans rights, and the rights of POC we can stop the murder of our trans family!”
You had declared that trans people are murdered BECAUSE they are sex workers. And that murders towards trans people can be stopped by gaining sex workers rights. You tacitly admitted getting sex workers rights to you is more important than getting trans rights. That is disgusting. Your kind of mentality is what would get more trans people killed.
And yet you claim to advocate for trans rights. Sicko.
Let me answer the questions for you in just one sentence:
There is no purpose, meaning, direction or future for any sex workers.
You already know. So do not stubbornly insist on the impossible.
Claire, you mentioned:
“I think there is a lot in your post that is being ignored, however while I think the culturally specific aspects are missing in a few people’s responses I totally back Mish in saying that sex worker rights cannot be separated from trans* folk rights.”
Here is where I will part ways with you, specifically because (again) trans people are of an IDENTITY, sex workers are of a PROFESSION. They exists in the same line, but different ends of the spectrum. The label sex workers is not exclusive to trans people, it encompasses all genders, age, race, religion and nations. To link prostitution to trans people would be similar to linking prostitution to Asia, where we have some of the biggest sex industries in the world.
In other words, I am a trans person. But I may choose a different profession. I cannot change who I am as a trans person, but I can change my profession. It all depends whether the profession fulfils my needs as a person. But that does not change the fact that I am a trans person. Jobs may change. I will always be trans.
Yuki Choe
18 May 10 at 1:25 am
Note: I talk about trans female sex workers here, because I believe they make up the vast majorety of trans sex workers out there, I also don’t want to deny the existance of non binary and trans male sex workers.
Yuki while your question was targeted at Mish I would like to add my option to why sex worker rights are important to all trans women and there allies*
I said in one of my earlier posts that you don’t need to be female to be a femalized victim, that is someone who is victimised because of misogyny and the assumption that they are female. I think the same is true of trans women and sex workers, as long as sex work is illegal it gives police an excuse to target trans women, because everyone knows trans women are whores right? Now that attitude is fucked, and should be stopped, but in the here and now, whether or not a particular trans women is a sex worker, she can be targetted as one, her “crime” of apparently doing sex work can be the reason the police don’t investigate her murder, which is the reason her murderer lives safely.
This is true whether she is a sex worker, or was a non sexworker on the way to pick up milk in summer, wearing what some police officer decided was slutty clothing. She will still be thrown in a male jail, and may well get a record as a sex offender.
Because sex workers are some the the most vulnerable people in the trans communtiy, because they are often from poor backgrounds, without support networks, you have said yourself all of the cultural and social shit that can happen to trans sex workers and can push trans women into sex work, I feel, for those vulnerable workers. I dream of a world where the worst reason anyone ever gives for doing sex work is that they really hated stacking supermarket shelves, that is not the world we live in, but seriously, what do you think a poor young trans women in your country who hates sex work wants, I wouldn’t be so brave as to speak for them, but I am guessing that jail time and a record aren’t things they want, and when part of my trans family is in danger, is subject to violence and state abuse, I want them to have all the support they can get, and that support must involve treating them as a person who can make distions, because they need agency.
genderqueer2genderqueer
18 May 10 at 3:14 am
Yuki: that is not what I said AT ALL. I said they are murdered because of the INTERSECTIONALITY of being trans, a person of colour, and a sex worker. The intersectionality of those three oppresions results in them being disproportionately targetted with violence and by the police.
“There is no purpose, meaning, direction or future for any sex workers.”
Thank you for making your whorephobia so overt.
Mish Glitter Pony
18 May 10 at 3:50 am
Glitter Pony gleefully wallows in the classic ideological fallacy that any criticism of a behavior is necessarily the same thing as unequivocal condemnation of those who engage in the behavior, regardless of context or consequence. It reinforces her victimology, further evidenced by her disingenuous reframing of Yuki’s laughter as mirth directed toward a class of people and their circumstances, rather than, as it actually was, toward Glitter Pony’s own words.
Yuki, I’m sorry that your foray here has met with such foolishness. Cultures really are different, and things like your concern for a greater community good are going to fall on, not just deaf, but actively hostile ears.
cigfran
18 May 10 at 3:56 am
like claire mentinoed, i would really like to see some of the other elements of the OP discussed, but the dehumanisation of sex workers (trans or not) in some of these comments is really distressing and objectionable, so i understand why people are focussing on that aspect.
nix
18 May 10 at 3:58 am
I would ask that you please all stop referring to me with feminine pronouns like she and her. At no point have I indicated any preference for pronoun. If you must talk about me, please use the gender neutral pronoun “they”. But to clarify, I do work as a trans woman.
Mish Glitter Pony
18 May 10 at 3:58 am
I’d like people to focus on the rest of the post, but the complaints about the dehumanization of sex workers are valid.
Lisa Harney
18 May 10 at 4:34 am
That is why I mentioned sex workers’ issues are big enough to merit its own forum without trans issues.
I find this to be an education of cultures, how trans people think and react to others.
Yuki Choe
18 May 10 at 4:58 am
Again, once more, I will fight for what everyone wants and needs to do with their lives. Even if you want to do sex work “as a trans woman”. If my wish to be out of sex work for good, and believing there is a better life (and believe me there is even for trans people) is taken by some people as offensive and “whorephobic”, then perhaps we should look at ourselves and ask, why are we forcing people to fit our norms? Why we cannot accept people who think differently than us? Thanks.
Yuki Choe
18 May 10 at 5:05 am
@Yuki Choe… in terms of trends do you see any changes? the violence, the lack of acceptance among non-trans people, the negative views of transsexuality- in your view is any of this changing? for the better, or for the worst?
MHS
18 May 10 at 9:58 am
Yuki Choe: You have every right to be “out of sex work for good”. What you don’t have the right to do is to crap on people who do – whether by choice or not – take that course.
Perhaps you should answer your own question – why can’t you accept people who don’t make your choices – or, more broadly, don’t *have* your choices?
Rebecca
18 May 10 at 11:14 am
There’s a news item making the rounds right now about the trial of a trans prostitute’s murder.
How does concern that a person’s circumstances could cause them to be killed constitute crapping on them?
cigfran
18 May 10 at 11:56 am
Part of the issue that I see here is a collision of cultural attitudes and the sharp division line between sex negative and sex positive.
The only thing I had an issue with was in the responses, when it was said “most trans people don’t”. I find that to be notably discordant with my study of trans folk as a trans woman.
If one wants to say that most paler skinned, euro-ethnic, economically privileged sorts don’t, I can likely agree with that.
But that’s me. And what do I know :D
dyssonance
18 May 10 at 1:15 pm
Incidentally, good to see your post here. I liked it, and I think it’s important to note the wide variety of cultural experiences surrounding being Trans.
Especially since, as you noted, Yuki, gender and sex are strongly tied to language, and thereby to culture and the expressions thereof. What is transsexual in one culture is not always transsexual in another, and the globalization and spread of western sourced ideas is not always a positive thing, as it often ends up erasing some critical cultural aspects of individual manifestations that would otherwise be of greater value in coming to know the diversity that is trans people.
Personally, I’m worried that, much like early feminism, we could end up erasing entire cultural systems and patterns that are important, imposing both with and without intent a “consistency” that isn’t there.
We need to be mindful that western ideas are not always the best.
dyssonance
18 May 10 at 1:20 pm
Correct, Dyssonance.
Transwomen of my acquaintance from around the world have often expressed frustration amounting to revulsion at the belligerent self-assurance of American models of trans identity, experience and etiology.
cigfran
18 May 10 at 1:28 pm
@ Rebecca,
I am still wondering when is it that, as you claim, I “crap” on people who take the course on sex work, or when did I even say I do not accept them.
Mind you, disagreeing and non identifying, and believing in having some definitive purpose in life does not mean not accepting. As I said, tiringly again and again, I support those who choose sex work. If you wish me to force me to affirm the viability of sex work, you are going to have to give me solid reasons other than attacking me as “whorephobic” or else. I have more sympathy with those without choice and forced in regards to sex work more so than those who choose it. That said, there is always choice. No one said it is easy. I myself have done it. But if sex work is your game, go ahead. Know it is your life.
@ MHS,
All I can say is that it is getting worse in Asia. Besides the total lack of assistance, religious fundamentalism is on the rise, causing tyranny towards trans people in several countries. Place that among the conservative culture in most of the Asian nations, trans people cannot breathe much for their lives.
Yuki Choe
18 May 10 at 5:12 pm
@ Dyssonance,
True. In my country and Singapore, generally, transvestite means a transgender who has not gone through reassignment surgery and transsexual means those who are post-op. In Thailand, it seems that there are no transsexuals but plenty of transvestites, which is used often to mean a third gender. It does vary from country to country here.
@ Cigfran,
I do not necessarily agree that we do not adhere to it. If we do not, whose model should we follow? We are still behind times here on gender studies, with most work with trans people here focussing on HIV/AIDS prevention, rather than any real discussion on transphobia, living environments, protection in schools, insurance and other matters I find equally important. Most of the trans work that covers a larger scope is done by individuals such as Leona Lo and Sass Rogando Sasot. They, and I, follow the American model of trans education. Because there is nothing else for us to grab our hands on in Asia.
Yuki Choe
18 May 10 at 5:33 pm
You support those who choose sex work?
There is no purpose, meaning, direction or future for any sex workers.
I think if that’s what you call “support”, we can do without it.
hexy
18 May 10 at 6:15 pm
In most of the world that’s pretty much the case. I honestly don’t know how you can ignore that. Even in the States, as you point out, it’s most common between transwomen of colour.
There’s no reason to “stop people from being trans” and there’s no way to do it without messing their lives up. What we “should” is make sure they’re not forced into sex work because that will improve their lives no end.
Can I ask you something, Mish? In your country sex work is not mandatory. I take it then it’s your choice. Why did you choose it, and what does it amount to exactly?
I’m asking because you keep saying that word, “whorephobia”. You use it against a woman who fears sex slavery. If you don’t understand why people are afraid of that, then I’m not even sure if “sex work” means what you think it means. Hint: it’s not glamorous, it’s not sexy and it’s not a fantasy you can hop in and out of whenever you like. At least not for most people it isn’t.
Oh and for the record, some of us here are neither WASPs nor were we always computer scientists, if you catch my drift.
YGQ
18 May 10 at 6:56 pm
Transwomen of my acquaintance from around the world have often expressed frustration
That’s interesting, cigfran. Could you elaborate?
Lisa Harney
18 May 10 at 7:10 pm
@ Hexy, only if there was no choice involved. If a father were to rob a person to feed his child, that man deserves all the help he needs to escape the consequences. However, if a man were to rob banks and calls it a valid choice taking you as a hostage, I doubt you would have much compassion on him.
This should be our last comment on sex workers here. I appreciate the commentary, at least I learnt a few things new from this. I ask everyone to please refrain from making anymore comments on sex workers and concentrate on the greater trans issues. Any more attacks on opinions should be totally ignored.
Yuki Choe
18 May 10 at 7:12 pm
Yuki, hi (I don’t think I’ve said hi porperly). I come from a very conservative society also and some of the things you say resonate very strongly with me, especially when it comes to attitudes of my people towards gender and sexuality, which can sometimes be, frankly, medieval.
On the other hand, some of the issues that cigfran mentions are there too. For example, there is a movement that started in Spain I think, to remove any and all diagnoses of transsexuality from the psychiatric diagnostic manuals. This movement has met with stiff resistance in the United Kingdom, where transpeople are better accepted than in most of the world and the medical costs of transition is publicly funded. Mostly UK transpeople are afraid that if transsexuality is not recognised as a medical condition, their surgery won’t be payed for by the national health service. This of course is a non-issue for most of the world where, although “gender identity disorder” has been in the World Health Organisation manuals for a long time, transition is not covered by any health security system, public or private. On the other hand, a few months ago France became the first country to have dropped transsexuality from its list of mental disorders and transition is still publically funded.
So, I digress but the point is there are often very different priorities in the minds of transpeople from different parts of the world and sometimes they can be at odds with each other. Where I come from, as where you come from, we are still struggling to get people off the streets, educated and healthy. In the UK their care is primary to be able to get their surgery while in France and Spain they care that they are not stigmatised. I won’t claim to make sense of the debate in the US.
Unfortunately, because most of us who are not English-speaking, have only recently started to use the internet in any significant numbers, the voice of 20% of transwomen ends up representing the other 80%. That cannot be a good thing, not so much because the US or the UK, or France, Malaysia, Singapore or wherever, do things “right” or “wrong”. But rather because one solution cannot fit the different problems that transpeople face in so many different parts of the world.
I’ll agree with you though, wholeheartedly, that any solution must start with education and with getting our arses off the streets. Basically.
YGQ
18 May 10 at 7:32 pm
As reluctant as I am, I agree with Yuki.
YGK: If you’d still like me to answer your question please email me at mishglitterpony@gmail.com and I would be happy to do so.
xx
Mish Glitter Pony
18 May 10 at 7:56 pm
No, it’s OK, Mish. Let’s leave it at that.
YGQ
18 May 10 at 8:11 pm
Re: frustrations from elsewhere, plus some extra stuff on things YGQ already explained.
The situation’s really different around the globe. The only common factor, ISTM, is persistent cissexism, but it takes different forms in different cultures.
Discussions on anglophone forums and blogs tend to be pretty US-centric with some UK bits thrown in. This is no bad thing in itself, but some of the discussions sounds just, well, foreign, and the solutions proposed are mostly solutions to problems we don’t have.
The WBW-controversy, for example – I know there are cissexist lesbians in Finland, but I’ve yet to meet one. Or they’re all so damn polite I haven’t found out yet. Or I’m just too stupid to notice. Or something.
Restroom panic sounds like something from an alien planet. I mean, seriously, who the fuck would panic over penises in the toilet cubicles? I don’t want to know what other people got in their pants (well, unless I want to get into the said pants, but that’s a bit different), and honestly, I don’t think anyone else wants to, either. We go to toilets to pee and crap and mebbe touch up makeup, not to get sneaky looks at other people’s bits. We just don’t seem to care!
Our problems, then, seem to be with speedy access to clueful medical care – note the adjectives. There is access to care, it’s just glacially slow at times. The care is not always clueful (say, HRT is prescribed all too often on an one-size-fits-all -model). The doctors are not always polite, nor well-behaved. And there’s the gatekeeping.
But the solutions proposed from, say, Spain (depathologise everything), would not be an amelioration: a flat-out depathologisation would mean, perhaps, no gatekeeping, but it also would mean an end to the system where a large part of our medical expenses are paid for by the state – as are everyone else’s other expenses, too. Besides, from what I hear from France, the French depathologisation hasn’t resulted in the removal of gatekeeping, or to better access to care, so I think it’s still very much a moot point if depathologisation will result in better living conditions for the French or not[1]. And I really really hate with a passion any proposals that make it a requirement to have substantial amounts of money in order to access care. Compared with a lot of USians, I’m probably in the loonie left.
Or, say, paperwork. We have a central register of all residents. Your legal sex is recorded there, amongst other things. If you have that changed, it’s then changed authoritatively – all state and local authorities must follow that, whether they like it or not. The process is not without some quite serious problems: there’s the eugenic sterility requirement, to give an example. But it still works (no marriage probs here, nor probs with driver’s licences or passports after that register change – they all are reissued although you have to pay fees) surely it’s possible to see that our framework differs quite a bit from the US framework, and that there are some advantages in some of our stuff, too, even if the US and UK people seem to balk at central databases of residents. At least ours is in the hands of the government, not private companies.
I’m also very suspicious of this identity thing (see my blog, it’s all there, won’t bore you with a repeat), plus these gender/sex, she/he/ze/sie divisions – my native language doesn’t have words for those particular divisions. One singular third-person pronous is all I have, sex (in the male/female/whatever sense) and gender translate into the same word. Which doesn’t mean sex (as in the act), BTW. A lot of the sex and gender and identity politicking seems to revolve around concepts that have been derived from anglophone thinking (gender identity, sex/gender division), with anglophone (or perhaps Indoeuropean?) concepts which I don’t share, and don’t really want to, either. We’ve concepts and words of our own, which don’t translate too well into English.[2] This might not be such a problem if it weren’t for the sheer volume of anglophone discussion – lots of stuff simply gets imported here (and the USians don’t seem to be very shy of exporting their thoughts, either), and there’s very little cultural translation going on, meaning we get all sorts of structures more or less imposed on us on international level.
Anyhoo, Lisa, you asked for examples. There you go. Plus of course the fact that English is my second language; I’n nowhere as fluent, or quick, as I’m in Finnish. And I’m one hell of a privileged gal.
[1] http://outrans.org/blog/?p=109 , see also http://outrans.org/blog/?p=103 .
[2] “sex” = “sukupuoli”. “gender” = “sukupuoli”. “transsexual” = “transsukupuolinen”. “homosexual” = “homoseksuaalinen”. See?
“transgendered” doesn’t really have a translation, we tend to use “transgender” as an adjective, separate from “transsukupuolinen”. “Transsukupuolinen” might be included within “transgender”, but it might not. Depends on the context.
Carto
19 May 10 at 12:34 am
I hope I’m not derailing or restarting things here, and if I am, just ignore me, but there is a difference between two people that are entering into what is essentially a contract where both participants are willing and without duress, and someone who is entering into a contract because it is a Hobson’s choice and thus does so effectively under duress. The former is entirely legitimate, while the latter is not and the situation needs to be remedied.
We need to respect the free and independently made choices that trans people make, because cis people most certainly do not.
z
19 May 10 at 1:46 am
regarding American/”Western” models of transsexuality, and conservativism of Asian cultures, etc… I thought I’d once heard that some countries in Asia had a history of tolerance for some trans people- specifically feminine roles for those assigned male at birth- and that the negative impact of “outside” [incl. "Western"] homophobic and transphobic attitudes was more of a modern development. obviously Asia is a large an diverse continent so I don’t know that this would even contradict anything that’s been said… but is what I’ve heard totally off base?
MHS
19 May 10 at 8:10 am
Carto, thanks for the links. (interesting to see how French people use “transidentité” instead of “transgender”).
YGQ
19 May 10 at 11:53 am
The sex/gender division is derived from medical language proposing that trans people have a gender different from their sex. I’m not sure that it’s specific to anglophone thinking or specific to linguistic gymnastics necessary to enforce a false mind/body duality on trans people that legitimizes the idea that all trans people really are their sex assigned at birth, and helps enable focusing on GRS as a prerequisite for changing paperwork.
Lisa Harney
19 May 10 at 8:20 pm
@ MHS,
The rise or transphobia, in my opinion, has a lot to do with the rise of heterosexism and gender roles getting more and more rigid is most countries in Asia.
Other than that, the British left a law in Asia called Penal Cold 377 which penalizes “unnatural sex” with sodomy being clearly spelt out, which affects pre-ops as trans female are stereotyped as gay men.
There are also western influences in terms of media which depicts mysoginy, male chauvanism and heterosexism interpreted in Asia as how men should be, and how women should behave towards their men.
Also, governments are controlling the sex education system, basically schools are teaching students what they need to know and at times nothing further than reproductive systems, which in terms may or may not contribute to Asian’s obsession with sex organs.
So I would say, there are influence from western countries, but internally the rise of religous fundamentalism especially in muslim dominated areas do contribute to the discriminative and often hostile environment that trans people face daily in Asia.
Yuki Choe
19 May 10 at 9:07 pm
@ Lisa,
I totally agree. In Singapore, one of the few Asian countries where you can change your gender marker on your documents after you are pre-op, does make a clear distinction that you are only female after you are post-op. Pre-ops and non-ops are considered males. Thes causes a majority of trans people being ridiculed with male pronouns in the newspapers and discriminated against in the general public. This even causes a divide between the post op trans people, and pre ops who may not be able to afford GRS.
In Thailand, as I mentioned, transvestite means the “third sex”, which invalidates the fact that the male / female identity still exist for trans people.
Yuki Choe
19 May 10 at 9:14 pm
FWIW we can (and do) change the legal sex without operations. They’re not a requirement. Permanent sterility plus two state psych statements is, though, so it’s not all fun and games.
Carto
19 May 10 at 10:34 pm
Out of curiosity, Carto, how does the state define “permanent sterility”? I guess I’m wondering how that is achieved without surgery of some kind?
nix
19 May 10 at 10:53 pm
That requirement is satisfied with being “officially” on hormones for a year. That “official” bit has been waived numerous times, though, if people have had scripts to show or if it’s been abundantly clear that a person has been on ‘mones already for a long time.
And yeah, they know that a year of HRT might not make you permanently sterile, but that’s how it goes, anyway. Having tubes tied/cut doesn’t count, and those psych evaluations mean you basically have to live more or less cis-congruently for a year – at least as far as the psychs can tell.
Carto
19 May 10 at 11:04 pm
Yuki, it’s mostly the same in the US – some states won’t let you change your birth certificate at all, and those that allow it usually allow trans women to change their sex with just an orchiectomy.
There seems to be a lot of transphobic anxiety about simply giving trans people the paperwork they need without requiring numerous expensive hoops.
I had a conversation with my niece about Thailand, actually. She is taking gender studies and was trying to compare the US’ lack of any kind of third gender category with Thailand’s (and other cultures’) space for a third gender category, and while I appreciate her willingness to not be judgmental about other cultures, she didn’t seem to get that the third gender category can be fairly oppressive for the people who are forced into it, just as with trans people dealing with being forced into the wrong category of male or female.
Lisa Harney
20 May 10 at 5:06 am
Carto, that would be worlds better than what the US has. One year on HRT? Yeah. It would save a lot of people a lot of trouble.
Lisa Harney
20 May 10 at 5:07 am
Yeah, it does. The way we argued it to the politicians (in 2001 – the law passed the parliament in 2002) was that the law needs to have provisions for people who cannot, for example for medical reasons, have surgery. Money isn’t such a huge problem here as surgeries are paid for by the state with a rather reasonable co-pay (a few hundred euros for a vaginoplasty), so the medical reasons -argument won the day. No-one’s policing what those reasons might be, so if you don’t want bottom surgery, don’t have one.
I think it should be possible to get your legal sex changed without HRT if there was some clear contraindication for it – the law at least leaves this possibility open. Haven’t heard of anyone actually doing that.
There’s still the psychiatric gatekeeping, and the queues are long (from referral to first visit seems to take like two to three months ATM, diagnosing takes a minimum of six months and only after that does the one year start to count), though, so I wouldn’t call it good. But yeah, it’s a lot better than requiring everyone to have surgery. Most of us have the legal sex changed before any surgeries, ‘cos the surgery queue tends to be long, too (over one year AFAIK), and having legal sex changed is not too much of a hassle, and it saves you from a lot of unnecessary harassment.
Carto
20 May 10 at 5:45 am
Carto absolutely nailed what I was talking about earlier — and the issue of language is more than just medical modeling.
Language shapes the nature of the discussions that one *can* have — and a perfect example is the establishment of Cis as a term.
Having that term changed the conversations that were possible in the first place, because we think in terms of language.
In language without the ability to create that separation, the conversations and directions are much, much different, and there is a sense that the way that it is separated in English is somehow “better” or “more useful” and this leads to the thinking that the conversations had are better and of greater value, when in the end, that’s simply not true.
We talk about using logic, which is framed for social discourse of this sort by language — if we don’t have the concept, we can’t really talk about it.
Instead we have to talk around it.
This is all a part of the Eurocentric push — and, in particular the English centric push — for discourse and discussion of Trans issues, which are not simple and not cut and dried and *inherently tied to the culture* because Gender is part of the cultural component.
If gender is social construction, then the society that constructs that particular view of gender is the only one that truly valid in that culture, and it is always going to be affected, inherently, by the language of the discussion.
I’m aware of it, but I’m not truly able to speak to such things with the clarity of someone who experiences it — such as Carto. But I can still point it out when I see it.
The idea that sex and gender are separate things is, in and of itself, a western concept, and that entire discussion loses at the very least some of it’s merit outside that since the functional language of discourse doesn’t allow you to have such.
dyssonance
20 May 10 at 4:26 pm
1. Quick fist-in-solidarity to Mish. Almost any work in an interdependent economy is in some way objectified. Any time your boss tells you to stand at attention when it serves no purpose, anyone you know who has been fired for dying their hair green, or having multiple piercings, is objectified on the job, so why does sex get singled out?
2. “…I don’t think you can become “addicted” to hormones.”
Well, no more than I’d be addicted to having my body chemistry set straight… really I consider myself to be wrapping up my 27th year of estrogen withdrawl, hopefully to end quite soon, but depending on the doctor, possibly not… got to love Canada for being one of the most restrictive places in the developed world as far as hormone access goes.
valeriekeefe
23 May 10 at 6:16 am
[...] the questioning transphobia post “greeting from asia” was published, it reminded me of another post, on another big blog, that was the infamous “no [...]
What the hell, questioning transphobia « Genderqueer 2 genderqueer's Blog
31 May 10 at 10:00 pm