Cis is hostile terminology? Really?
A regular (a cis gay man) at Pam’s House Blend expresses that he feels “cis” is offensive and demeaning, and that trans people who use it are basically bad people (plus we’re bad people if we’re unhappy with John Aravosis’ transphobic remarks):
For the record, I find cis- to be offensive. In general, I thought our community (I mean the whole LGBT rainbow here) uses terms that are acceptable to those being described. That is, we use the preferred gender of trans people, we call someone bi if they identify as bi, we don’t say tranny, etc.So why is it okay for (some of) the trans community to call us cis-? If members of the trans community said “stop calling us trans, we find it offensive” would we here at PHB continue to say “trans”? I doubt it very much.
Cis is a neutral term applied to people who aren’t trans. It’s intended to decenter the notion that not being trans is the natural, default state for human beings and that being trans is a deviation, and that trans people are other. Most terminology that cis people use to define themselves as cis generally reifies cissexism and cissupremacy.
As much as I disagree with Autumn’s fairly rapid agreement with this statement, despite the reams of material written about what cis actually means, her invocation of the tone argument, and her comparing the use of “cis” to violence and hate:
To begin with, I’m giving up on the words cissexual and cisgender. I saw these as neutral terms, and now I see these are not. Thank you for your reasoned explanation as to why.And yeah, civil tone matters, and thinking in terms of broad communities matter. I see these as being more and more as important as time goes on.
One more MLK Jr. quote:
Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars… Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.
I, for one, want to see the stars through my very real rose-colored glasses — $50, pink-shaded, prescription glasses I actually bought from Zenni Optical to make that personal point about looking for a brighter, more beautiful world.
I am perhaps more concerned by the threat to ban anyone who defends “cis” terminology from commenting at Pam’s House Blend:
This is going nowhere, and is starting to offend people at The Blend.And in a post that’s theme is about behaving civility, I’m not having any of it.
Public warning in this thread — next person who uses this thread to make comment defending “cis” terminology gets a trap door drop.
Message received, Autumn. It is vitally important to protect the cis commenters at PHB from those dangerous trans people who dare to label privilege.
Edit: Just to be clear, it’s not that Autumn disagrees with “cis” terminology. It’s the tone argument (used at least twice), and the threat to ban anyone who defends “cis” usage.
Edit edit: Comments back on
Uh, maybe I need to steer clear of PHB from now on. It’s a real shame, as I thought Autumn was doing some actual good for the community.
What the hell does Autumn expect us to call cis people? Basics? Beginners? Stunted Developers? Gender 1.0?
z
29 Jun 09 at 1:47 am
“Normal” possibly.
I don’t consider PHB to be trans friendly at all now. If defending cis terminology is enough for a ban threat, and it only takes one wounded cis man to weep that “cis” hurts his feelings to have it taken off the table completely… yeah.
Lisa Harney
29 Jun 09 at 1:51 am
I think, personally, “normal” is an insult to me :)
I missed this too; I raised an eyebrow at the “let’s be civil to the gay white men” thing but viewed it through some more diplomatic glasses and moved on — I didn’t realize this nonsense went on in the comments.
Unfortunately the LGBT family is not a nuclear one — the B gripes at the L and Gs dismissal of their sexuality, and we find ourselves in conflict with the cis LGBs, etc — there are still multiple oppressions here, and that’s the unavoidable reality of the situation, and while we can try and be a happy family, there’ll always be conflicts. Suppressing these would be almost delusional.
z
29 Jun 09 at 1:58 am
I think “delusional” is problematically ableist.
Anyway, yeah, it’s strange how we can have multiple discussions about cis privilege, identifying cis privilege, note how cis people try to erase their privilege and naturalize the idea that trans people are properly defined as abnormal and variant from “normal/non-trans people”, and the moment a cis man steps up to engage in that specific erasure, Autumn immediately relinquishes the argument and says “you’re right, it’s offensive.” He’s using a standard oppressor tactic.
I mean, seriously, I wish someone would explain how “cis” is this massively offensive insulting term and “trans” is not. If a cis person sees a term intended to equalize trans and cis people as offensive, that only gives me a hint as to how they see trans people. The notion of being equal to trans is apparently horrible and demeaning.
Lisa Harney
29 Jun 09 at 2:08 am
I’m glad that the constant going on and on about how we need to repeal DADT so we’d have more troops already got me too disgusted to even skim PHB.
Also, causing a privileged person to get all watery eyed because their privilege was pointed out over the internet is not violence. Also, it is an indication that the privileged person is either a) manipulative or b) being extremely emotionally fragile.
My gut always reads “behaving civilly” as “don’t step on the toes of your betters”.
anarchafemme
29 Jun 09 at 2:09 am
@Lisa Harney: The notion of being equal to trans is apparently horrible and demeaning.
Exactly, if you’re horrendously transphobic (not “all cis people are transphobic because they have cis privilege and have to keep that in mind in their words and actions and will mess up from time to time” but “OMG, WTF” transphobic). You’re absolutely right that he’s using a standard oppressor tactic, and Autumn is trying to get cookies from the oppressor by coddling his feelings.
anarchafemme
29 Jun 09 at 2:13 am
Yeah, I think that’s what tone arguments are code for.
The other thing about PHB that I never got around to posting on was the LOUD COMPLAINING when Obama didn’t immediately repeal DADT or DOMA. I remember some trans commenters telling them that they need to wait until it’s the right time and they’ve done the necessary education before they get what they want. I just about died.
Lisa Harney
29 Jun 09 at 2:15 am
Oh my God. I don’t get this at all. I mean, for a start there’s the whole “cisgendered people are the majority and hardly an oppressed group whose self-identification is an important part of staking out their place in the world” and then there’s “what the hell is insulting about “cis”?”
It doesn’t help that the poster is all “I find it offensive” without the least attempt to explain what history/connotation/usage makes it so, and that makes Autumn’s reply of “ZOMG you are so right it’s aaaaaaaaaawful” just seem bizarre.
[All about me for a moment] And as a cisgendered straight woman? The subthread about LOL NO ONE’S REALLY STRAIGHT SILLY RABBIT was pretty damn galling, too – and weird in a thread ostensibly started by asking “why don’t we label [dominant] groups what they want to be labelled?”
QoT
29 Jun 09 at 2:16 am
wtff?
Now can het people jump in and declare they are insulted by being called ‘het’ or ‘straight?’ or can i cay ‘i never really agreed to be called ‘white’ so it’s insulting? and if not, what’s the fucking difference?
maevele
29 Jun 09 at 2:43 am
In catching up on the site, I found out that it was not a threat, but a promise.
She did indeed ban, although the reason seems somewhat unknown.
Even acknowledges it in the Enough Already thread.
ynsaen
29 Jun 09 at 2:51 am
It’s extremely revealing that people would take issue with a term that originated in the trans community being used to describe people who aren’t trans. IOW, the fact that people are offended when members of an oppressed group create their own, non-demeaning ways to talk about their experiences (which of course includes non-*supremacist terms for the group that’s given more power) says volumes more than all the ‘but I love/admire/respect [insert group name here]‘.
Tangentially related, I personally don’t have a problem with the term non-trans because I see it as centering trans experiences in much the same way that the term ‘abnormal’ centers people and experiences that are assumed to be ‘normal’. Besides cis-, I don’t know of any other terms that would depathologize trans people and their genders.
And it’s disturbing that PHB would discourage any meaningful discussion by basically saying ‘ok, this guy wins because his feelings are hurt and if you try to disagree with him or me you’re getting the boot’. While Autumn and Pam have the right to moderate however they wish, a blog that is supposedly trans-affirming could do better in centering trans people’s experiences in general (rather than Autumn’s in particular) when it comes to the discussion of trans issues. And yes, this probably does mean telling cis gay people to STFU on a regular basis, especially if they insist on complaining about being victimized by the terms that trans people use to talk about their experiences and lives while having no problem with their terms being imposed on trans people.
MTG
29 Jun 09 at 3:04 am
Wow, I’d taken PHB off my blog reader recently for other reasons and was thinking of putting it back on because of Autumn’s great reporting, but this…its just odd.
I was under the impression that we don’t use non-preferred labels to define people because they reinforce societal oppression. Ie, its not offensive to say someone is blonde since blonde has never been an category defined by oppression (setting aside blonde jokes of course!). But its not okay to use words like “tranny” or “fag” or the myriad of other hateful epithets because they attempt to enforce the idea that the people who fall in a certain category are subhuman.
That cannot be true of a cis person any more than it can be true (in the US) of a straight person, a white person, an able person, etc.
Kristen
29 Jun 09 at 4:31 am
Wow. I remember making similar arguments about cis when I was much more transphobic. The very idea that one of the moderators would IMMEDIATELY cede to one privileged person’s perception of what cis means is incredible – especially when they don’t offer any argument beyond “I feel discriminated against!” Wow, you feel discriminated against because of your PRIVILEGE. Makes a TON of sense.
RMJ
29 Jun 09 at 5:06 am
I’ve heard this elsewhere about cis being viewed as a negative term. Some people prefer “non-trans”. I haven’t quite figured out why it’s offensive, especially since it’s used as an academic term and one that’s rarely used outside of academy to refer to those, both gay and heterosexual, who are of their same gender. I suppose one could say that gay is a cis-sexual orientation, no? ;)
Sigh. Either way, it’s a shame that someone else’s privilege, very blind to them, is taken as a preference over our ability to distinguish between ourselves and the rest of society.
syrlinus
29 Jun 09 at 5:58 am
Geez Louise–this is really puzzling. I just glanced through everything, and it really rang of “the trans people are complaining and it hurts our feelings…we don’t want to deal with it!” which is funny, particularly after the heterosexual privilege checklist they just published…
canonball
29 Jun 09 at 6:03 am
You’re absolutely right that he’s using a standard oppressor tactic, and Autumn is trying to get cookies from the oppressor by coddling his feelings.
this. i was going to say something about “collaborating with the cis oppressors”…
i left PHB a year and a half ago, after cis gay men reamed several trans women, including myself. we were called “bitches” and “monsters” and told that we could not be part of the “gay community” and that trans women cannot possibly be lesbian. Pam and Autumn let this go on with no modding, not a word.
but this is a new low. i am very disappointed in Autumn for kowtowing like this and also in Pam for allowing such a broken policy to stand.
PHB, Pam, and Autumn will never see a dime or word of my support.
GallingGalla
29 Jun 09 at 6:12 am
Unfortunately the LGBT family is not a nuclear one
I could make a case for thermonuclear, esp since Autumn is rationally choosing to coddle oppressor needs at our expense. My friend fought the power, and got stomped on, and that is not okay.
voz
29 Jun 09 at 6:54 am
I’d already given up on Autumn as an apologist to cis gays and for her constantly making the Angie Zapata trial about her in pretty creepy ways. It was tedious. When she started using some ridiculous “Jew Panic” metaphor to explain trans panic to white cisfolk and had a meltdown when it was suggested that as a white person she maybe shouldn’t appropriate another experience like that I realized there wasn’t any common ground with her activism for me.
- A.
gudbuytjane
29 Jun 09 at 7:01 am
I read comments like these and I see the words “they” and “them”. Who are “they”? I’m a gay white male, am I a part of “they”? I haven’t written anything about this subject until now, but when I read comments on PHB from certain individuals, I get a real sense that I am being lumped into a big group and stereotyped.
Personally I wouldn’t refer to myself as “cisgendered” and as a purely academic term, I’m not entirely against it but I think it’s more problematic than some people are pretending it is. For one thing it sets up a dichotomy that probably does not exist in the natural world. I don’t see where the biological aspects of either trans or cis have been successfully separated from the social implications, which is key. These are not simply “scientific” terms that describe objective truths about natural phenomena, as some of you would like them to be; they are theoretical terms used in the humanities as tools to explore complex cultural issues. You need to know the difference before you start applying the terminology to real people and their identities.
Socially constructed gender roles tend to be vague, contradictory, and impossibly idealistic; nobody completely conforms to expected gender norms and roles. Many gay men and lesbians especially don’t feel comfortable with traditional gender roles, even though we don’t necessarily want to change our biological sex. Gender identity, like all things in nature, lies along a continuum. On the face of it I think a cis/trans dichotomy is overly simplistic.
That, paired with the hostile tone and painting “they” or “them” with a broad brush are what is contributing to this drama, imo.
Eshto
29 Jun 09 at 7:09 am
Hardly a shock; Pam’s House Blend and its contributors regularly give voice to and support HRC and its affiliates to the point of threatening trans women of color with police violence, advocate harmful “consumer activist” tactics like “boycotting Jamaica” (which apparently means boycotting Red Stripe, a company that’s been pretty LGBT-friendly) against the clearly stated wishes of Jamaican LGBT organizations, and Pam herself cross-blogs over at Pandagon (you know, Amanda Marcotte’s blog).
So why is there any surprise that there’s strong support for one more fucked up thing? Pam’s House Blend, not just Autumn, should’ve long since been written off.
shemale
29 Jun 09 at 7:11 am
a privileged (married!) gay man whines about a power-balancing term because he needs first, to preserve the otherness of transpeople and second, not to have to examine the structure of his own gender… and autumn falls into the trap out of an excess of “civility.”
poor autumn has really been had.
cigfran
29 Jun 09 at 7:19 am
So why is there any surprise that there’s strong support for one more fucked up thing? Pam’s House Blend, not just Autumn, should’ve long since been written off.
Agreed. Put up a safety warning so trans women don’t walk into that mess and have to deal with privileged people shitting on us, and Heaven forbid they start coming over here acting like offended frat boys ot butthurt radfems to claim that cuz they don’t like being called on their shit, it doesn’t apply.
Oh wait…just saw the last comment/bingo card. Brace for impact…INCOMING!
voz
29 Jun 09 at 7:21 am
Whoa whats next? Will Heterosexual become considered offensive too?
Seriously there needs to be some consistent rationale used for this kind of thing.
What non-offensive term is there for not-trans people that is not offensive to transgender people?
Not-Trans in itself suggest ‘normalcy’ and Others Us for crying out loud! So what would they prefer to be called? If they find an option (preferably one thats linguisticly consistent.. oh but damn, thats the one they are objecting too!) that doesn’t offend us then maybe it’d be ok… but if they have none then they are just whining that they are being made equal to us!After all what else makes Cis offensive? What makes Cis offensive but not Heterosexual?
(oh wait, maybe if they pronounce it like Sis it seems like sister or sissy and it triggers their transphobia? and if they pronounce it like Kiss then that too makes them squeemish?)
Personally I don’t mind being referred to as a CISsexual Transgender person. Cause I don’t consider myself Transsexual and I’m sure as heck Transgender!
Battybattybats
29 Jun 09 at 7:23 am
I’m temporarily closing comments while I sleep. Please, no one take it personally.
Lisa Harney
29 Jun 09 at 7:37 am
[...] the terms cisgender and cissexual at Pam’s House Blend in the past few days. (ETA: there is a post over at Questioning Transphobia about this as [...]
[cis-privilege blindness and cis-normativity in cis LGB folk] « Bad Moon Rising
29 Jun 09 at 2:22 pm
Eshto, I don’t know why you think that a word that means “not trans” is lumping you into a group and stereotyping you. It only has one meaning – that you’re not trans.
It doesn’t say that you’re comfortable with everything expected of men, it doesn’t say you’re just like all other men, it doesn’t even say anything about gender roles. All it says is that you’re not trans.
It does, however, say a lot about how you view trans people when you say that cis means all these things. But seriously, anything beyond “You’re not trans” that you take from “cis” is your own baggage.
Oh, and read the links I posted.
Lisa Harney
29 Jun 09 at 4:40 pm
I haven’t quite figured out why it’s offensive, especially since it’s used as an academic term and one that’s rarely used outside of academy to refer to those, both gay and heterosexual, who are of their same gender. I suppose one could say that gay is a cis-sexual orientation, no? ;)
It’s not really an academic term.
I don’t think gay is a cissexual orientation, on account of all the gay trans men and lesbian trans women I know.
As for why people see it as offensive – well, when you use a word that puts them on the same footing as trans people, and they get angry, it’s like I said above: To me, it sends a message about what they think about trans people more than anything. If a term that decenters and identifies cis privilege is seen as deeply offensive, and a cis person carries a list of assumptions about what it means to be labeled as cis, I can’t help but think they apply similar assumptions about “trans” as a label applied to people, and that perhaps I should be deeply offended at their use of trans.
Lisa Harney
29 Jun 09 at 4:42 pm
Sometimes, in order to achieve a *common* humanity, we have to rise above what is, in reality, a tiered humanity.
TO see that tier, though, one has to know that the tiering exists, that one is above another.
This is a situation where people who *see* the tiering are trying to tell those who do not see it (privilege) and being told they are offensive for doing so.
THis is the “uppity negro” reaction — angry, lesser status person telling someone who is, whether they want to think of themselves as such or not – a higher status person that they are different and they need to acknowledge it.
Saying that cis is offensive is, as I described at PHB (right up until I was asked to stop, and not after, although I was still dropped), saying that straight is offensive, that gay is, that white is, that all these things that speak to us independently as different from each other, are wrong and offensive.
ITs enough to make me change the wording in my bill that I am working on getting passed here to say “and sexual orientation *except* for those who have a congruent gender identity and expression.”
Because that’s what I’m being told when people claim cis for offensive.
Dyssonance
29 Jun 09 at 4:55 pm
It bears repeating. “Cis” in this sense isn’t an academic invention, but a community one, rising out of the alt.transgendered newsgroup in 1994 and spreading from there to soc.bi and elsewhere. It’s one of our words, as much as words like “bear” and “straight” are.
Ceri B.
29 Jun 09 at 4:59 pm
Ah, the Curse of the Label. It is never ending. Like drawing a line in the sand: some will see it as art, some as a challenge to a duel, some will ignore it until the sea washes it away. Labels are inevitable. Get over it. Labels can hurt or help. Work to heal or be thankful for the good ones.
How many Latin and Greek scholars are debating this?
“Cisgender”? Great. If you know the derivation of this prefix enough to comment intelligently, you are theoretically smart enough to reason about it, not flame.
I think we should open the thesaurus and start prefixing the words ad nauseum…disgender, misgender, progender, congender, endogender, contragender, pyrogender, inflamagender, geogender, pseudogender, ultragender, and do the same for sexual. Maybe we will all see how childish this can become. Jonathan Swift wrote great satire on the human frailty that such arguments lead to…from arguments, to fights, to battles and to wars. Let’s focus on the positives, folks. We have more exposure in a positive light available to us today than ever. A potential for ENDA to pass, a presumed friend in the White House, more good role models in the public eye than ever before. Keep the ‘tone’ civil, surely, but substance is more important! IMveryHO.
Roxanne Edwards
29 Jun 09 at 5:11 pm
Oh My God.
They are shutting down commentary.
Dyssonance
29 Jun 09 at 5:24 pm
Dyssonance – I followed the link to PHB. I have to say you were (are) actually really nice to those guys – way nicer than I would have been (and I tend to come across as much nicer than I intend). For all the flack dished up about *tone* and the massive massive cis derail and the trans appropriation and erasure you were seriously inspiring.
rioTgirl
29 Jun 09 at 5:48 pm
I felt sandwiched between Kevinchi, who thought it was a good idea to try to paint me with the uppity brush by trying to get me to rephrase my arguments in “everyday” language (I demurred, because of how loaded with privileged assumptions everyday language is, and because I felt that the words I was using said exactly what I wanted them to), and a couple of cis gay guys who were trying to forward the idea that all labels are automatically evil.
Well, they’re not. They might be suboptimal in many ways, but they are not evil and are in fact useful.
*sighs*
Kittyburger
29 Jun 09 at 5:49 pm
Oh My God.
They are shutting down commentary.
I’m not shocked. Autumn doesn’t do well with disagreement: She’s appointed herself the new voice of trans women, she just doesn’t like hearing trans women’s voices.
Pam’s House Blend has lost any of the little respect I had left for it, and any relevance it can claim as an activist voice. It certainly is not a friendly place for trans women, no matter how many apologists and tokens they keep on staff.
gudbuytjane
29 Jun 09 at 6:07 pm
@rioTgirl,
thanks.
Despite my personally being hurt in an emotional sense by the actions of Autumn, what’s more important is that people see that I was being myself, and while yeah, I’m irascible, I do try to see both (well, actually, all five) sides to something.
I am stunned at the reactions on PHB, which until recently has been pretty decent. But this has basically made it very clear to me — and that means I will speak to it more in this manner in the future — that the real problem at PHB isn’t that transfok are bashed (they bash *everyone* who isn’t gay or lesbian), but that there is a tremendous degree of hypocrisy within the commenters there.
And its a top down format.
Come civility day, I will find a way to make known what I think about “civility” at the blend in a far less pleasant way than I did in my post there “Anticipating Civility Day”.
When there is a call for civility that is followed by threats, and then by outright insults hurled at one’s opponent (wingnuts?), there is hypocrisy.
That it is one of our own only gives power to her worst detractors.
Dyssonance
29 Jun 09 at 6:46 pm
I’m completely lost as to what the thrust of Autumn Sandeen’s argument is other than kissing the ass of John Aravosis, who expected a free pass when it came to blaming us brown people for Prop 8.
Aim higher, Autumn.
algormortis
29 Jun 09 at 6:48 pm
The conversation on nomenclature is a necessary one, and it irks me that it gets shut down hard every time it pops up, no matter how civil it is (and the conversations at PHB have been far more civil than they need to be… up to the point where moderators start to close things down and/or threaten posters for having the temerity to disagree).
A couple of people are upset that there is a word for their gender expression and it was chosen by someone who wasn’t them. That’s fair. Regardless of whether I actively identify as transgendered, other people are going to label me so, and while I might disagree with them, I’m not going to tell them not to label anyone transgendered just because the label doesn’t describe me with complete accuracy.
I think the most telling statement that keeps cropping up is this (paraphrased): “But I don’t identify as being cisgendered… I’ve never had to identify my style of gender expression before!”
Congratulations! You are privileged!
ellysabeth
29 Jun 09 at 6:56 pm
This is just so bizarre.
First, I genuinely do not get, at all, what’s supposed to be problematic about cis.
Second, of course people should get to say how they’re described, and so I would not go out of my way to call that one particular person ‘cis’, but one person’s objections to a term cannot possibly be a reason to not use it ever.
Plus, why are all these people apparently fine with terms like ‘natal woman/man’? I would have thought that the idea that, say, a transwoman was not “really” a woman at birth would be utterly objectionable.
That said, I’m cis, and relatively clueless, so I am also more than willing to be told that I’m wrong about any or all of this. ;)
hilzoy
29 Jun 09 at 7:10 pm
- gudbuytjane
I agree with you about Auumn. I’m not going to trash a sister who is doing for herself – even tho I feel like her activism is equal parts genuine activism and equal parts self promotion. Even that I can kinda get with (a gal’s gottta eat and if you can be an activist and pull some cash/recognition with it s’all good)
The line came when she farking coddled the poor widdle cis gay boys who are soooooo horridly maligned and by the maen old nasty tranz.
I passed through gayboy-ville on my way to tranny-town and I have never seen a group more blind t their own privileges than the typical urban GWM. Unchecked sexism, raceism, all that and more given the way sissy boys are shit on too.
Not all by any means, but seriously I’m currently not sure who is worse for us Rad Fems or the average gay guy.
rioTgirl
29 Jun 09 at 7:59 pm
Welcome Hilzoy! Love OW and the WM!
Anyhoo, you mention a good point-the alternatives to Cis really aren’t that better-I think the term “natal woman” sorta is on the express lane towards stuff like “womyn born womyn,” which also sorta fucks with trans people’s own view of their gender. I like to think of my true gender as being pretty damn consistent over time, even if I may have been in severe denial about it.
Amanda in the South Bay
29 Jun 09 at 8:01 pm
@rioTgirl
As upset as I am with what happened to me, its not Autumn’s fault except in making some missteps in treading a line that’s hard to tread.
Its the people in the thread.
And as for who’s worse – there’s no contest going on. They are both equally bad — exceptions abound with individuals, but still, the large groups of them find all manner of reason to defend their privilege and demean us.
Because they really do see us as inferior, or they fear they are one of us.
Dyssonance
29 Jun 09 at 8:22 pm
There’s a factor at work too that I can sympathize with even while criticizing. My life has been so strongly shaped by disability that I think of privilege almost entirely in terms of the abled/disabled spectrum, where I’m on the blunt end. It’s uncomfortable sometimes to be reminded of how other privilege I’ve had nonetheless, starting with being white.
It’s just that the right response to being uncomfortable is to figure out why, and if it’s a matter of an unwelcome truth that needs to be engaged with, engage with it rather than denying it. It’s tempting to say “I have no privilege because of all I suffer thanks to X”, but that doesn’t make Y or Z go away.
Ceri B.
29 Jun 09 at 8:34 pm
@Dyssonance
I see your point wrt Autumn. I used to try to be the “nice one” all the time. Defended the WBW policy at MichFest, wouldn’t use “cis” if folks were troubled, taking a measured tone, on and on…
I’m sure it’s no surprise that the folks I was accommodating still took a crap on me at the first opportunity.
That and I’m a bit pissed over some real life FTM drama. tl;dr some trans-pride stuff turned out to be FTM-Pride and me and some other trans women were made very uncomfortable and asked to leave because some of the FTM’s cis gfs were “weirded out” by trans women. ugh
rioTgirl
29 Jun 09 at 8:35 pm
@ rioTgirl
OMG. That is so totally uncool. I think I can safely say the guys here (and the wives) would smack them upside the head.
(I do a support group every other weekend that specifically brings them together in partnership with a transguy who holds them the weeks I don’t).
Its not really funny but truly sad that as bad as the cisfolk can be to us, we’re even worse at times.
I’m not nice about it. I might be civil, but nice is never in the order.
Dyssonance
29 Jun 09 at 8:44 pm
@Dyssonance
Fair enough, but we make our choices and she has made the choice to silence us. For that she is responsible. If she cannot make difficult choices in the face of wanting approval from cis folk, then perhaps she needs to think about being an activist at the time when she can. This does not help us any, and we certainly don’t need any more negative weight than is already put on us every day.
Having said that, I am feeling raw from the tranny-alert.com stuff, and will try to be kinder. Thank you for making me check that. I can argue the point without being mean about her.
@rioTgirl
Thanks for that reminder, too, I don’t want to let my frustration with her have me sink into the internal trans meanness that actually supports cis hierarchies. Still, this move is not defensible, and I will continue to call her out on it. I’ll be – dare I say – civil, but we can’t back off from this.
gudbuytjane
29 Jun 09 at 8:52 pm
I’ve put this up on my journal: http://gudbuytjane.livejournal.com/9562.html
Forward it if you think it is a good idea.
gudbuytjane
29 Jun 09 at 8:54 pm
@dyssonance: not her fault? missteps? autumn is actively silencing trans voices. in addition to banning any commenter who dares to use the word ‘cis’, she is now shutting down commenting on any threads where anyone is opposing the ban policy or speaking out against the silencing.
@gudbuytjane: at this point, i have totally given up on PHB. i would rather work to create safe spaces for trans folk than deal with PHB at this point. but i will pass the word on.
GallingGalla
29 Jun 09 at 9:33 pm
Great… another feminist blog where I no longer feel safe because of transphobia.
That leaves me with… a grand total of one.
If I drop to zero, I will formally renounce all connection to feminism.
Sabrina Star
29 Jun 09 at 9:35 pm
@gudbuytjane I liked the idea, will tweet in a sec.
@Galling Galla You are correct. She acted improperly, and, in so doing, enabled the oppression being don by a few loose screws over there and the avoidance of such by the site owner (who has effectively and possibly deliberately stopped it from being part of the front page of the site).
@Sabrina Star No. There will be a new one.
I’ve bitched about that before, so I guess I’ll have to do it myself.
Dyssonance
29 Jun 09 at 10:12 pm
I agree with @GallingGalla — Autumn has lost a huge amount of credibility and what she’s doing can’t be written off as just innocent mistakes.
She’s working to actively further the oppression of trans people so that she can be seen as the “good” trans person.
Kynn
29 Jun 09 at 10:22 pm
@Kynn and we all know how far being the “good” member of an oppressed group gets one when things get rough. cis LGB orgs certainly aren’t going to reciprocate the favor.
anarchafemme
29 Jun 09 at 10:39 pm
I’ve just realized that referring to straight people is offensive. They are just people; the rest of us are queerpeople (and intruding on people’s spaces).
Marja
29 Jun 09 at 10:45 pm
Oh ffs, “cis is offensive” is up there with “you must poll all cis* women before trans* women can call themselves women”.
*goes off to call whaaaambulances for teh p00r oppressed ~ecru~ ~natal~ ~homophile~ ~humans~ aka, white cis gay men*
Drakyn
29 Jun 09 at 10:56 pm
I just read an earlier email Autumn sent to me regarding my banning from the site, and its conflicted.
Basically, I pissed her off. I updated my blog post about it.
Dyssonance
29 Jun 09 at 11:10 pm
@Kynn “I just don’t see why my trans peers don’t understand that quote from Malcolm x about field negroes and house negroes.” (in my best autumn voice).
Better?
But yeah, she was acting and defending her actions in the same manner.
I knew there was a reason I was malcom x to her MLK.
Dyssonance
29 Jun 09 at 11:14 pm
So, my latent chemist arises and wants to suggest using the E-Z nomenclature rather than the deprecated cis,trans system. so, if ‘cis’ is not acceptable, perhaps one might prefer Z-sexual and E-sexual
… or not…
sharav
29 Jun 09 at 11:37 pm
I’m willing to be either dextro- or levo-sexual, too.
Ceri B.
30 Jun 09 at 12:03 am
…and describe poly relationships using the meth-/eth-/but-/prop- naming scheme? *ducks*
z
30 Jun 09 at 1:51 am
The cafe will open the first of July
Dyssonance
30 Jun 09 at 3:05 am
Hey, Lisa — may I crosspost this at a cafe?
Dyssonance
30 Jun 09 at 3:18 am
[...] a rather large blogsplosion going on, based on the response to, and subsequent “debate” around, the term cis. In the best [...]
Cis | xoros
30 Jun 09 at 3:18 am
I found this article through Twitter, so pardon me if I’m coming into this debate halfway.
Honestly I had never heard the word “cisgender” before in my life. I had to look it up on Google. But in my precursory search, it appears to be used as an insult more often than not.
Beth
30 Jun 09 at 3:52 am
as i said, autumn has been had. she has been used, and her better nature turned to malicious purpose by the manipulations of one very canny saboteur.
we in general, and people like autumn in particular, are hyper-sensitive to language and claims of offense. all it took was one privileged man to drop the “i am offended” cherry bomb and set off a chain reaction that triggered autumn, riled everyone, and generally demonstrated the case that keeps us marginalized on PHB, Bilerico, Americablog, and everywhere else: that transpeople – and most particularly transwomen – are hysterical and unruly.
she was played, and she sucked everyone into the little shitstorm with her.
very sad.
cigfran
30 Jun 09 at 3:53 am
Cis isn’t just a useful descriptor, it’s also the one thing that helped me “get it” with regards to being trans. I’ve known Lisa for 2 years and early on I was telling her about a trans woman I know IRL, she’s the sister of a friend. Anyway during the conversation I kept ungendering her, I would talk about her being a boy or brother, and switching back and forth between he and she, him and her, depending on whether I was talking about her childhood or her life now. I wasn’t doing this to be mean and hateful, but out of ignorance, because I did believe that once she was a boy but now she is a woman, and I wanted to use the proper words for where she was at in the chronology of her life. I thought I was being respectful. Sadly I don’t remember Lisa correcting me, now it could be that she was just too exasperated with me to do it, or not in the mood for educating, but I suspect that she did and I didn’t hear it, because that’s how privilege works. I only heard what I wanted to, or what I expected, or what fit my worldview.
It was only later when I heard cis being described that I understood. I finally got it that cis just means I was assigned a sex at birth and that I was fine with it, but the important part to me is that trans means that a trans person is assigned a sex at birth and he or she is in conflict with it, right from the start. A trans woman has always been female, and a trans man has always been male.
I think from Hilzoy’s comment it is clear that cis was at least one of the factors, if not THE factor, that gave him his “lightbulb moment” too.
Donna
30 Jun 09 at 4:02 am
@cigfran
If she was played it was because she seeks approval from cis people at the expense of trans people. This is not news. She chose to shut out other trans women for the sake of the opinion of her of white, cisgender gay men. That’s her choice, but it’s the end of her as a voice in this community that has any relevance whatsoever.
gudbuytjane
30 Jun 09 at 6:32 am
Donna: Hilzoy’s a she. :) But yeah, encountering “cis” can be helpful to a lot of folks, realizing that they have a relationship between the sex and gender they feel and what’s expressed in their bodies, even when it’s basically harmonious.
Ceri B.
30 Jun 09 at 6:47 am
My account there was just suspended (by Pam, too). Shame on PHB and their cissexist policing of trans people, and for not addressing dissent, just erasing it.
gudbuytjane
30 Jun 09 at 6:58 am
[...] As Lisa Harney writes at Questioning Transphobia, the term cisgendered is intended to shake up the norm and highlight a privilege that often goes unnoticed (by those who are privileged enough to do so, that is): Cis is a neutral term applied to people who aren’t trans. It’s intended to decenter the notion that not being trans is the natural, default state for human beings and that being trans is a deviation, and that trans people are other. [...]
Fun Feminist Says: Transphobia’s Not Funny! « Kittywampus
30 Jun 09 at 7:53 am
‘Cis’ didn’t help me ‘get it’, insofar as I have. A close friend of mine did. Of course, that didn’t help much with terminology, as she was as much in the dark as I was, having spent most of her life deep in the closet, just trying to make the whole thing go away, and therefore having, if anything, less of a clue than I did about what terms people used. (And that’s saying something, since I had no clue at all.)
I just always thought that ‘cis’ was a very elegant way of dealing with a real linguistic need, and I’m baffled by the fact that it’s controversial. (I mean, would anyone really rather use some term like ‘person whose gender identity is congruent with the biological sex s/he was born with’? Gack.)
hilzoy
30 Jun 09 at 9:02 am
oh wait, maybe if they pronounce it like Sis it seems like sister or sissy and it triggers their transphobia
Seriously. I had a commenter who emailed me about a post in which I used “cis” in a totally casual and non-central way who actually used this argument against the term when pressed to give reasons why it was offensive. “It sounds so much like sissy, which is insulting, and I assume that’s why trans people chose this word to describe us.” I’m not even joking. I didn’t know whether to laugh or beat my forehead against the desk.
And in my experience, being familiar with the etymology of the word doesn’t seem to help in these cases, as I had assumed it would. There’s absolutely nothing normative about the cis/trans pair in Latin, but at the same time, those who object to “cis” can’t explain where the negative associations come from in our culture, or what the negative associations are supposed to be. So I assume they’re just looking for something to be pissy about, and arguing with them gets you exactly nowhere. They’re not in this discussion to be reasonable and advance constructive dialogue – they’re in it to uphold their privilege.
Rachel_in_WY
30 Jun 09 at 9:18 am
this has been a horrible blunder on both Autumn’s part and PHB – This blog is on top of my blog roll on my D – list blog – i shall never be commenting on the blend again. What went down is inexcusable. For all the reasons stated above, and then some. Cis gendered is necessary nomenclature for the 21st century..don’t like it, learn more, If one finds it insulting welcome to our world. How PHB and Autumn could shut down dialog is beyond me. No its not comfortable but damn , and all this right after i praised Pam for her award, and have always supported Autumn’s endeavers – but placating the privileged is So NOT the way to go. I am tempted to go back just to get banned. This blog Questioning Transphobia in now the go to blog for this genderqueer dyke. Thank you all for the intelligent discourse.
and i agree with Drykan on the analysis you said that very very well !
proudprogressTG aka genderqueer riff raff.
proudprogressive
30 Jun 09 at 9:19 am
IMHO, I believe these coversations happen because the term trans is too broad, encompassing people who are transsexuals, transvestites, gender non-conforming, transsexuals who are not planning for surgery etc.
I consider myself cis, but frankly I do not wish to be overlapped with those who are not transsexuals. I see Autumn wishes to perserve some cis-privilege (I am assuming here) because she may identify as non-cis,though transsexuals identify as cis, so she understands why she herself finds the term offensive because she cannot relate to some sub-sets of trans.
It is a difficult issue. Full inclusion for everyone means toning down on labels. I may be a transsexual, but I cannot deny transvestites wish to cross-dress. I am trying to understand Autumn here, but I guess the same way I hope for all transgenders to be one,
Autumn may want to do away with the word “cis” because it will separate people and distance them, not getting them today. But with the same argument, I hope one day I can be just called simply woman and not trans. The same way I think she hopes to just be called human.
Comes to think of it, I think you most of you are right in saying PHB are a bit discriminative. It seems transgender comments there are perceived as less of importance and strength, while the straights and homosexuals comments are supported and agreed.
Yuki Choe
30 Jun 09 at 9:26 am
Ok. I am here and I am open to learning.
Now if you want to refer to me as cisgender here, that’s fine; this is, after all a trans house.
All I ask is that you meet where I am as opposed to where you think I should be. And don’t assume that you don’t have to hold my hand at times as regards to the subject matter. Don’t assume that I should know anything about it or that I accept your terms.
And as I’ve said, don’t reacrt to me by attacking, I am not here to hurt you or to flaunt my privilege.
kevinchi
30 Jun 09 at 11:09 am
The discovery of ‘cis’ was definitely a light switch for me and as a cis woman, a lesbian and a feminist I didn’t for a nano-second find it in any way offensive. It’s useful linguistically, it evens the playing field, it illuminates. There’s no implicit imperative for any individual to use it in their own identification if it doesn’t fit but to suggest that the prefix is offensive just by existing and insist that no-one should use it seems just like saying to the entire GLBT community that the word ‘heterosexual’ is offensive. I’m absolutely boggled by the resistance to it all over the place. I’ve even had someone suggest that it’s a funny, awkward ‘word’ – difficult to pronounce! The person was a a radical lesbian feminist – you know – someone in the sis – ter-hood! Apparently educated and/or smart and politically aware people can behave very strangely when they feel their own position is being threatened it seems. I remember many years ago reading an entry about the prefix ‘Ms’ in Pears Cyclopaedia (spelling?). The guy called it ‘un-pronouncable’ – wrote this in the book for posterity – as if he’d never said the word ‘fizz’ in his life!
What they’ve done at PHB is definitely protecting privilege and it’s right that they be called on it all around that silenced thread.
cicely
30 Jun 09 at 11:13 am
This is really disappointing. If only I’d known how much we were hurting the cis people’s fee-fees, I could have kissed and made it better tonight when I’m done teaching online courses under my partner’s name because I can’t get a job of my own with a mis-matched sex marker.
Claire
30 Jun 09 at 11:13 am
Rachel says:
It sounds so much like sissy, which is insulting, and I assume that’s why trans people chose this word to describe us.
…what? seriously if that’s the best line of reasoning yet available, i’m just completely lost. it’s like the world’s most absurd monty python sketch.
algormortis
30 Jun 09 at 11:34 am
I know some gay cis-males (and one straight cis-male) who self-identify as sissies. These people can’t even manufacture complaints that their identities are being stomped on without stomping on someone’s identity.
Claire
30 Jun 09 at 11:40 am
@cicely
(Unless, of course, some people might be offended by the possibility of pronouncing the ‘cic’ in your name as ‘cis,’ in which case I can refer to you as “…ely” ;))
as a cis woman, a lesbian and a feminist I didn’t for a nano-second find it in any way offensive.
And up to this point no one has seemed to have issues with it. It’s not a forced identity or trans people being uncivil or demanding (as we’re being painted).
The heterosexual example is exactly the point… people were defensive, but they eventually got over it and it is now a valuable term when discussing hierarchy and sexuality. Had ‘heterosexual’ been denied there would still be heterosexual privilege and dominance, just as trying to erase ‘cisgender/cissexual’ will not disprove the existence of cis* privilege and dominance.
The issue here isn’t about language, it is about privilege, and not wanting to own that.
Telling, too, is that if we remove ‘cis’ and ‘trans’ from the discussion completely, we have ONE white man demanding a community of women change their use of language because he is offended. The message Pam is sending to women is really sad, that even in alleged “progressive” spaces man > woman.
gudbuytjane
30 Jun 09 at 11:50 am
algormortis,
I was quoting from a comment Battybattybats made (sarcastically), and I only commented on it because I’ve actually heard people lodge this complaint about the use of the word. For real. It is like some kind of bizarre parody, until you realize that the person you’re talking to is serious. One commenter said this in an email in response to a comment thread on my blog, and the other time I’ve heard it was in a comment thread on Feministing.
But what I don’t understand is why the complaints about “cis” are still taken seriously even though nobody (that I’m aware of) has ever provided a plausible or even remotely reasonable explanation of what’s wrong with the use of the term. Outside of a lot of whining and pointing out that not all cis people are alike (as if all trans people are?!?), I’ve never heard a reasonable argument against it. So once again I just assume these complaints (along with the “but it’s so hard to pronounce!” shtick) are yet another tool in the othering/norming toolbox. And in my experience these people aren’t interested in constructive dialogue or inclusiveness, and are unlikely to change, so pursuing it with them doesn’t seem worth the effort.
Rachel_in_WY
30 Jun 09 at 12:10 pm
But what I don’t understand is why the complaints about “cis” are still taken seriously
Because the people complaining have a lot of power to make trans lives miserable or worse.
Sighs..I know you’re trying, but..it’s still trying.
voz
30 Jun 09 at 12:20 pm
it’s the same old crap, rachel. oppressor group is directed to use less offensive verbiage for oppressed group. oppressor group complies in part but doesn’t change their ways on the whole, backlash occurs when certain members of oppressor group become angry about being asked to use less oppressive/offensive verbiage.
certain members of oppressed group knuckle under because approval of oppressor group means something to them personally. oppressor group holds them up as models of “good” members of oppressed group and oppressor group resumes its same ol’ ways.
as a person of african descent, i can point to this over and over as we’ve gone from being niggers to being colored to being negroes to being black to being african (not always american). the people singled out for harassment in the oppressed group are always those who are working toward improvement.
same old shit, just a different set of mechanics.
algormortis
30 Jun 09 at 1:12 pm
Cissexual queer person here.
It’s not that I’m baffled – I think I do have a sense of why some people get all huffy about it, I just don’t think their reasons stand up to examination – but as Cicely puts it, for myself “I didn’t for a nano-second find it in any way offensive”. It’s a useful word, and to me its etymology has a satisfying sort of elegance to it.
I hesitated about posting that 2p because of ye olde “not making it all about me”. Who cares what I think :-) But then I thought I would err on the side of communication in this case, partly because I think there are probably a lot of other cis people who would also think it was a perfectly good and non-offensive word, who just aren’t reading the right threads to pop up and say so. So just wanted to add in a bit more visibility for that point of view… for what it’s worth.
Jennifer
30 Jun 09 at 3:09 pm
Kevinchi, I’m not sure what you’re asking – the post itself has links to three other posts about what cis (cissexual, cisgender – two different, related terms) mean. We’ve been making this terminology available and accessible, but everyone wants to start at ground zero.
Beth, it’s used as a descriptor. Generally speaking, if people are being insulted by it, it’s because they’re oversensitive and reading too much into it. They might even be looking to be offended.
I do think some people have used it in an insulting way, but I don’t see that the way it’s most often used is insulting.
Lisa Harney
30 Jun 09 at 3:29 pm
voz and algormortis,
I do understand the hierarchical dynamic, and the “I don’t get it” line was meant as a manner of speaking (i.e. it doesn’t make any sense).
To be more clear, I just think it’s sort of ridiculous that these complaints are taken seriously when they’ve never been backed by plausible reasoning. I’m in favor of self-identification in general, but if that involves using othering language and offering no good reason for being offended by a non-othering alternative, then you’ve lost my attention and sympathy. And people who are committed to being offended by terminology like this aren’t likely to be good listeners or interested in constructive dialogue, in my experience. That’s all.
Rachel_in_WY
30 Jun 09 at 4:01 pm
I’d actually be fine with dropping cis if all cis people stopped using “trans” and left it for people who want to identify as trans.
Rachel, one of my favorite reactions to cis was a radical feminist who decided that being “cis” meant she was no longer a woman, but she refused to analyze what that meant about how she viewed trans people, and insisted that it was vitally important to be able to label trans people and vitally important to never label cis people.
Lisa Harney
30 Jun 09 at 4:09 pm
Sorry about that hilzoy, I’m only an occasional reader at Obsidian Wings, and for some reason I just assumed it was a liberal dude site. Funniest part is that I misgendered you in a comment about misgendering. D’oh!
“…it’s because they’re oversensitive and reading too much into it. They might even be looking to be offended.”
Lisa, I lol’d! You little devil!
*playing overprivileged people bingo*
Donna
30 Jun 09 at 4:31 pm
I know, Donna, I’m terrible. ;)
Lisa Harney
30 Jun 09 at 4:41 pm
People looking to be offended and overreacting? No way!
PHB user Fritz, in response to another poster’s disbelief at his suggestion that the term CIS doesn’t lead to violence against cis people like trans does to trans people:
“Do you think trans people are superhuman? They aren’t subject to the same prejudices and evil impluses as everyone else on the planet?
If that’s what you believe you are dangerous.
When you label people and paint them with broad strokes, you create prejudice. Prejudice can lead to hate. Hate can lead to violence.
How do you think things started in Nazi Germany? It began by dividing the population into two groups. It began by labeling the Jews as oppressors and a privileged class.
Don’t believe me? Read a book or two.”
Who needs The Onion anymore when people are ridiculous enough to spontaneously create absurd humour on their own?
I guess SS could be pronounced “cis cis,” so Fritz might have a point. It’s Ciskreig! First Pam’s House Blend, then Alsace-Lorraine, then the world!
And it is trans women and cis allies who are being labeled as unreasonable on this?
gudbuytjane
30 Jun 09 at 5:02 pm
[...] Cis is hostile terminology? Really? A regular (a cis gay man) at Pam’s House Blend expresses that he feels “cis” is offensive and [...] [...]
Top Posts « WordPress.com
30 Jun 09 at 5:27 pm
Lisa,
Yeah, I’ve gotten the old “I’m just a person” line as well as the “natural-born woman” line, but never with a coherent explanation of why “cis” is offensive. But the “sissy” line just left me speechless, which is (ahem) unusual for me.
Rachel_in_WY
30 Jun 09 at 5:56 pm
I actually, through this, finally managed to get over my discomfort of the word Cis labeling me cause now I actively know what it means.
I always felt it was used as a term to separate, not a defining term. Sorta like “We’re trans, you’re Cis, we’re different, stay on your side of the room.”
No I didn’t have a reason for it, I just had never been given a solid definition for it and never thought about it. Yes, it’s obvious, but sometimes it takes a “This is what it means” to really put it through. Kinda like that it took me years to realize that my two aunts (one non-biological) were lesbians. It just was obvious but because of that, I never really thought about it enough.
It wasn’t until I read the post “Cis means comfortable with your sex and assigned gender at birth” that made me realize “Oh. It’s not them trying to say ‘You’re not like us’, it’s just them saying what I am.” Cause it’s true. I am comfortable with it, while others are not. I am cis, they are trans.
And in that sense, trans people and cis people are different. And ya, there is privilege involved. But by defining it, I saw that it wasn’t that they were saying we were completely different in all ways, just in that one. It is an important one, but it isn’t as huge as I inadvertently perceived before.
I just know that my discomfort came from being defined and labeled as something when I wasn’t sure as to the connotation or full definition to the label was.
So ya, I don’t think it’s hostile, more people not being sure what they’re being labeled as fully and getting defensive. Without knowing the full meaning, the connotation becomes lost and it becomes more of a wall than a definition. It might be obvious to a lot of you guys, but some of us really never get past the “It means you’re not trans” part and think “So, what does it mean to not be trans?” I know as much as I hear about queer and trans issues that it never really clicked until I read that post.
Anywho, thanks for the inadvertent help. Makes my life a lot easier talking to my trans friends cause I shouldn’t fidget every time I hear the word ‘cis’ anymore cause I get the connotation now. ^.^
Will
30 Jun 09 at 6:21 pm
I was chewing on this thought while reading thru the thread:
–
I think the biggest reason cis people become hostile to “cis” is because they realize that all this fucked up stuff is perpetrated on trans people BY cis people, they realize the weight of being grouped together by that particular characteristic, and they really, really don’t like the association.
(… which is another way of saying “called out on privilege” I guess. it’s late.)
–
… then I kind of realized the more I read everybody’s words … even THAT centers things around cis people and cis people’s feelings.
–
it makes me deeply sad to follow this kind of blowup. I just don’t know what else to say. I really wish things could be fucking different.
amandaw
30 Jun 09 at 7:21 pm
I wasn’t opposing your point, Rachel, i was trying to sympathize and express shared disbelief. That’s all.
algormortis
30 Jun 09 at 8:39 pm
Well.
I downloaded and saved lisaserano’s page on cissexual/cisgender terminology. I’ll read and study it.
My first impression though.
There was a discussion on lisaserano’s page about how the use of heterosexual/homosexual was utilized in much the same way as cissexual/transexual (?) is being used.
Interestingly, there was a recent discussion at PHB about the use of the word “homosexual” and why the author of the piece found it to be demeaning. To many, the term homosexual seemed to “medicalize” gay people in such a way that it was an anchronism of a time that being a homosexual was also a euphemism of being mentally ill.
I suggest that while the intention is to create a neutral word, the word may sound too…medical? Or too anachronistic?
I am still uncertain, at this time, whether cissexual actually is a “neutral term,” at least in my mind.
kevinchi
30 Jun 09 at 8:50 pm
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/11288/why-does-the-word-homosexual-piss-me-off
here is a link to that discussion.
kevinchi
30 Jun 09 at 8:54 pm
That’s Julia Serano.
The problem I have with this argument is that no one – not one single cis person – who objects to cis terminology ever stops to talk about examining the baggage that transsexual and transgender are freighted down with, and the assumptions that are propagated about people who fit the description of “transsexual” or “transgender.” Neither of those terms are neutral. For many cis people, just knowing that someone is trans is all they need to know to decide that they know everything worth knowing about that person. They come with oppressive and offensive stereotypes and assumptions.
And when we say, “We need a way to refer to people who don’t want to transition, whose gender identity doesn’t differ from their assigned sex, who identify themselves as men who were assigned male at birth and women who were assigned female at birth (even if they use different words to communicatre that). We need a way to refer to these people that destabilizes the notion that they’re the default, normal way to be and trans is a deviation from that that default norm.” and then use “cis” terminology, some cis people then produce a laundry list of objections to that terminology that almost miraculously mirrors the problems that some trans people have with trans terminology, but yet they locate the problem with trans people who use the terminology, and not with, for example, the way society others trans people as freakish.
Why is it necessary to mark trans people as trans, but it is offensive and wrong to mark cis people? Why is my decision to transition something that must be used to identify me whenever possible, but your decision to never transition something that must not be named?
I see what you’re saying by linking homosexual to cissexual, but you glossed over transsexual entirely, as well as the point that cissexual is actually comparable to heterosexual, and transsexual is comparable to homosexual. Homosexual was also terminology that was applied to people with same-sex attractions by privileged heteronormative society that marked them (us, actually – I am a lesbian) as other. Cissexual and cisgender are words coming from trans people, who have already been marked as other. The equivalency isn’t there.
Lisa Harney
30 Jun 09 at 9:04 pm
Oh, I don’t like “cis” (whoa, put down those pitchforks!) because it has little to no semantic meaning at large. It took me a *long* time to figure out what it was supposed to mean (and I’m still not clear on its pronunciation).
But offensive? Nah. Its only crime is inelegance. Other than that it’s a pretty useful tool, especially in its ability to flip perspective around… once the term is finally at long last understood.
It’s not an academic term…if you’re familiar with chemistry (which I am not) it’s an oddball term there. That lack of recognition of what it means is why I don’t care for it. But I’m a big girl. Cis-gendered, even. I suck it up.
Trans is not very useful either, IMO. Like someone commented above, it took me some time (this was seperate and prior to grokking cis) to understand that there was no *change* per se — that is, a transwoman was always a woman and didn’t “change” into one upon realizing this, or declaring it, or physically altering herself. But “trans” implies transition, change, something other than was before.
But hey, language is messy like that.
anon
30 Jun 09 at 9:09 pm
algormortis,
Sorry – I’ve got the Benadryl medicine-head thing going on today…
kevinchi,
When I first heard the word “cis” I immediately thought it had been chosen precisely because it is the completely neutral and non-normative opposite of “trans” in Latin. And I was still studying Latin (in grad school) at the time, so I was pretty well immersed. That’s not to say that it couldn’t be used negatively in this current context, but so could any word you chose. The point is, it’s not inherently negative, and even if a word is occasionally used in a pejorative way, that doesn’t make it inherently negative. If that were the case, I would have abandoned Feminist and Liberal and Activist and many other terms long ago, thanks to Fox News.
And before “cis” was medical or scientific it was just Latin, a fact that nobody seems capable of remembering in the context of this debate. The whole “it sounds too scientific” thing seems odd to me. Are we then going to abandon all the Latin and Greek prefixes in our everyday language that are also used in science and medicine based on this reasoning? That’s a lot of words to root out of our language.
Rachel_in_WY
30 Jun 09 at 9:12 pm
What alternative is there?
I’m happy for cis-folk to come up with an alternative so long as it doesn’t other us the way non-trans and the like does.
If they can find an equal term thats fair that they prefer then by all means lets hear it!
Untill they have one as Cis is the only decent alternative then there is no choice but to use it!
Battybattybats
30 Jun 09 at 9:19 pm
I’ve used “gender congruent” before. In fact I’ve used that to *explain* “cis-gendered” to others. As another note, I should say the first time I saw the word “genderqueer”, I got most of what it meant in one shot.
I amused myself for a while coming up with words using variations with the prefix “homo” (for “same” of course) but we all know how well that would go over.
(There’s also that pesky issue of the conflation of, or variously differently seperated, meanings of sex and gender… )
anon
30 Jun 09 at 9:23 pm
Oh my… Then I seriously doubt they would like my taking up of Sophie Siedlberg’s term “normborn”.
You know I was going to write some sort of analysis but Julia Serano wrote a book about it.
When a man tells women how they can or can not describe their relationship to a male dominated culture the appropriate term is misogyny.
Suzan
30 Jun 09 at 9:25 pm
@anon
But at the same time, I am sure not many people outside of scholars of ancient Greek had much recognition of, let alone understanding of ‘hetero’ before ‘heterosexual’ became popularly used, which was only in the 1960′s, so it’s not a long long time ago.
Ultimately the people who were being described by the term (and that is all it is, a descriptor) must have dealt with whatever issues they had, because outside of ridiculously homophobic individuals I cannot think of any heterosexual person who would object to it, and they would find the notion of being offended by it laughable. The term even has had strange cultural merit, in concepts like meterosexuals. It is that innocuous.
Some people will struggle with the term for a while. Hell, I am a trans woman and I resisted and then struggled with using it for a fairly long time. I have been around for long enough that merely getting people to use and consider “non-trans” felt like a victory, and I was afraid of losing that, regardless of the problematic nature of the term. But then a friend explained it to me with the heterosexual example I just shared, and it clicked why it was an important term and how it allowed all of us to have balanced conversations about differently gendered identities.
As for the stickier issue of cis privilege? Well, I think we would all be better served by a model where there is no reason to be afraid of admitting to being in a dominant group, and to acknowledge when we let our anxieties silence criticisms we end up being actively the thing we are demanding we’re not. I am white, and I accept one of the things that comes with that is the need to acknowledge and work against systemic racism, part of which is admitting to my own white privilege. I know so many great activist people of colour, and sometimes in their justified frustration with their activism they might say things like “Effing white people piss me off!” But I know that is not for me to make about me, and that then looking to them to pat me on the head to tell me I’m one of the good white people would be such a hypocritical move – again making the dialogue about white people. So instead I try to be a good friend and listen.
I feel like the problems at PHB are rooted in a severe discomfort at acknowledging one’s privilege, and cis is the thing that set it off (which feels to me to be rooted in unspoken transphobia).
gudbuytjane
30 Jun 09 at 9:53 pm
[...] out this post at Questioning Transphobia. The post addresses cisgendered gay man who claims the term cisgender (i.e. non-trans) is [...]
Cis Is Not an Insult « The Czech
1 Jul 09 at 6:24 am
[...] The resulting discussion on Questioning Transphobia, which contains links to several other relevant discussions: http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/2009/06/29/cis-is-hostile-terminology-really/ [...]
Resources on cisgender, cissexual and cis privilege « Living My Life
1 Jul 09 at 8:27 am
OK. Here is an example from the PHB board today directed at me:
“Quit telling US how to deal with YOUR privilege (0.00 / 0)
You are just reinforcing the power dynamic, i.e., I am cis man, I expect you to please me in order for me to treat you with respect.
People have been meeting you where you are, and nobody has been dragging you anywhere. You just seem to insist that any time someone meets you, they’re assaulting you.
Grow up.”
Again, in this case, at least to me, the term is accompanied immeaditetly by an assertion that I am acting on privilege.
Now, perhaps I am.
But I compared this to an example where an African American woman assumed that she had the privilege on the job to call me a “nigger” in a fit of anger. While I don’t use that language personally (unless I’m really, really angry) I (and any AA, for that matter) would think that it’s highly inappropriate to use that, even in a fit of anger, while actually working.
If that co-worker chose to use that expression on lunchtime (off the clock, maybe outside the workplace) I still wouldn’t like it, I would get the anger behind it, but it would be off of the clock. I wouldn’t run back and tell the boss (for what? and what could he or she do?)
I’m not reinforcing a power dynamic, to my mind. I am requesting that certain phrases not be used in “mixed company” or in what I perceive to be an inappropriate situation.
Now had this been said on this board, I would say OK, fine and continued to listen.
Now I would welcome someone telling me how I was acting out of my power dynamic in this case…seriously
PS. The above statement was a direct response to this statement of mine.
“I am not where you want me to be as far as the trans community is concerned.
Fine.
Then meet me (and everyone else) where I am at. Don’t drag me where you would like for me to be (whereever that is) kicking and screaming.
But of course you are painting my attempts to dialogue with the same broadbrush of privilege.”
But I haven’t included the entire string of statements, so this is out of context.
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 11:09 am
Note: For the record, I am the (trans) person whose phrasing kevinchi objects to.
Where in the world do you get this equation of “cis” with “nigger” from?
There IS a power dynamic involved because your cis status is accepted as “normal” and my trans status is “abnormal” at best.
You are trying to tell trans people that they can’t talk about being trans in a way that will bother cis people.
You maintain over and over that it’s about language choice — that maybe it’s okay to say “nigger” in some circumstances but not all, and that “African American” (the term you use above) is a good term — and yet you have not ONCE said “this is the term I prefer to ‘cis’: ____.”
Because it’s not about words, really, is it? It’s about you controlling and shutting down the conversation as a way of preventing an oppressed people from talking about their oppression in a way that does not oppress you.
You are fabricating the idea of “cis” as oppressive in order to maintain your privileged status — nothing more, nothing less. You are creating something that does not exist so that you can get trans people to stop talking about the effects that cissexism and transphobia have on their lives, and instead make it all about you and how your little cis feelings get hurt when someone “labels” you with a term that you didn’t choose.
Stop and think for a sec:
Why have cis people never before had to come up with their own term for “cis” to describe their existence as cis people?
If you come up with any answer besides the correct one — “because of cis privilege, that makes them the invisible default and marginalizes trans people” — then you are continuing to wallow in your passive-aggressive cissexism, and you are refusing to Get It, with all your n-word analogies and your tone policing.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 11:19 am
And what’s more, the term “cis” accompanies an accusation of cis privilege because you are acting out of cis privilege when you tell trans people that you, a self-proclaim ally, demand that they “meet you half way” and sugar-coat anything they say for approval by the people who are oppressing them.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 11:22 am
I wasn’t equating “cis” with “nigger” AT ALL.
Sheeesh, give this cis man a little credit for common sense than that.
And I don’t mind if you use cis man in this place at all, now.
That was my point, Kynn.
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 11:28 am
I am uncertain if I ever used the word “ally.” I think that I would like to be. That’s why I’m here.
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 11:30 am
One note here (that would make 3 postings in a row!)
I don’t like to use the term African American myself, I usually describe myself as “black.”
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 11:33 am
Bullshit, you were too.
And you’re also saying that “cis” is a term that can only be used in trans space, and not in (purportedly) “trans-friendly” space as PHB presented itself?
Thank you so much for policing the language used by trans people to talk about cissexism, Mister Cisgender&Cissexual Man. So glad we’ve got you “on our side.”
Meanwhile, black people should never talk about white privilege where white people might hear that, right? (I could believe that you feel that way, and if so, I really feel sorry for the way you’ve been forced to go along with racial oppression. I understand it, to some degree — just like I understand why Autumn Sandeen is so eager for cis queer approval, even though her attitudes are hurting other trans people.)
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 11:33 am
You will never become an ally as long as your supposed support for trans people consists of telling to shut up because you invented new definition of “cis” as an intentional slur against you.
And above, you just used the term “African American.”
PS: If I say I don’t like the term “white,” will you never again use it in front of white people when talking about racism? Especially if I make it clear that I’m not objecting JUST to the word “white” but to the concept of recognizing me as white? Thus anything from “European-American” to “Caucasian” to “honkey” to “person of pallor” is right out — you can’t, in any way, acknowledge my whiteness, because I will take offense at that unless you do it only in POC space. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 11:40 am
Er, sorry, I forgot to close the bold tag.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 11:40 am
One last PS:
“And I don’t mind if you use cis man in this place at all, now.”
Thank you so much for your condescending cis man permission, cis man.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 11:42 am
Oh, sheesh,
Of course black people can do that. I do it all the time.
And I suppose I police other black people who would rather not be bothered with my gay shit.
Sheeesh, maybe I should have stayed out of all these trans threads at PHB as I had been doing. Now I’m a cissexist. Among other things.
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 11:43 am
Not necessarily. I wouldn’t use it in front of you though.
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 11:45 am
Yes, you’re cissexist. Deal with it.
For starters, stop this whole bullshit attitude about “wah, you trans people were mean to me, I should have known better than to engage with you meanies, now I just won’t bother with your concerns any more!”
You say you would like to be an ally, but your words repeatedly prove that you only want to be a trans ally as long as you don’t have to give up your cissexist assumptions.
Are you ready yet to answer the question of which term you prefer instead of “cis”? Or are you just going to keep dodging that one forever?
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 11:47 am
No, it’s intersting that I use the term. it was unconscious, actually. I do slip into using it because it’s the most acceptable descriptor.
I never particularly liked to use the word gay, BTW.
I do have thing about being pigeonholed into language and terminology without my consent.
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 11:48 am
Whhaa, I am not a man, I am just a person!
There are people & then there are women; how dare you offend me by making me remember that “people” includes those icky gross girls!!!!111eleventyone
(eewwww, girl cooties)
Drakyn
1 Jul 09 at 11:49 am
I don’t prefer a term for now. kevinchi is just fine, Lynn.
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 11:49 am
Nobody’s talking about you not having a name any more. But how, exactly, should people refer to the status you happen to share with a large number of other people? There is this binary social category that we used to call trans and normal; now we’ve started to call it trans and cis. So what term should we use to describe the latter group? Do you think we don’t need words to describe this issue?
piny
1 Jul 09 at 11:53 am
“I wouldn’t use it in front of you though.”
…because you know that there are plenty of places where you could go that I won’t be, that you can talk about racism.
Mr. Privileged Cis Man, please understand this: There are very, very, very few feminist and/or queer sites, which are dedicated solely to trans issues (as this site is), where trans people can ever feel safe talking about trans issues in “mixed company.”
Your asshattery, and the asshattery of others on PHB (including Pam and Autumn herself), have reduced that number of sites by at least 20% and eliminated one of the few blogs that we’d hoped to be “safe space.”
That is fucked up, that is cissexist, that is valuing the oppressive group over the oppressed group, and you still to this day cannot figure out why your faux butthurt and pretend “courtesy” is causing so much fucking pain to trans people.
You are closed-minded and stupid. You refuse to listen. This whole conversation here, and on PHB, should have been a wake-up call to you, and yet at the end of the day you are repeating the same idiotic bullshit that you started off the conversations with — and crying about how trans people aren’t being “nice.”
For God’s sake, man, listen to the other cis people talking about this if you are hell-bent on ignoring the trans folks while forcing us off of “your” territory on PHB (it is very cis friendly, not trans friendly).
If you want to be an ally, then stop using your butthurt to oppress us and rob us of one of the few places we’d hoped we could feel some safety. If you want to be an ally, drop your defensiveness, drop your faux butthurt, and grow the fuck up, cis man.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 11:56 am
Do we need to call either status anything?
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 11:56 am
Hey, idiot:
Q: Do we need to call either status anything?
A: Yes. We. Fucking. Do.
QUIT TRYING TO STOP US FROM TALKING ABOUT OPPRESSION THAT KILLS US JUST BECAUSE YOU GET BUTTHURT AT BEING CALLED “CIS,” PRIVILEGED CIS MAN.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 11:59 am
Most people would say yes, we do. Otherwise, we have no way of discussing these social categories that currently cause people a lot of pain. How do you discuss transphobia without referring to our practice of differentiating between people who are trans and people who are not?
piny
1 Jul 09 at 11:59 am
So long as trans* people are being discriminated against, beaten, & killed simply for being trans*… So long as cis* people & their genders & sexes are privileged at the expense of trans* people & our genders & sexes…
Yes, yes we do need ways to describe the differences between how trans* and cis* people are treated.
When we live in a post-cissexism/transphobic world then we can be post-cis/trans.
Drakyn
1 Jul 09 at 12:00 pm
Well, sheeesh, I comment and read and some pretty unsafe spaces and blogs and comment at them as well. I really can’t feel sorry for you for not having a safe space; I really don’t either.
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 12:00 pm
PS: “I don’t prefer a term for now. kevinchi is just fine, Lynn.”
Nice job on getting my name wrong at the same time demanding that I use your name.
But hey, fine.
From now on:
I will start referring to cissexism, cis privilege, cissexuals, cisgender people, etc, as kevinchisexism, kevinchi privilege, kevinchisexuals, kevinchigender people, etc.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 12:01 pm
Sheesh, you poor kevinchigender bastard. Since you read unsafe blogs, that makes it okay for you to flaunt your kevinchi privilege left and right, and use it to silence trans people who talk about kevinchisexism.
In your unchecked kevinchi privilege, you refuse to care that you are hurting non-kevinchi people — because how else could you read what I wrote and shrug off being told of the pain and harm you are causing and just say, “hey, life ain’t fair for us kevinchisexual people either”?
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 12:04 pm
Yes, but by telling people they don’t have the right to describe prejudice against them in the words that make sense to them, you’re actually working to destroy not only safe space, but a secure lexical position. So, no, “suck it up,” is not a good response.
piny
1 Jul 09 at 12:04 pm
Sorry ’bout that Kynn.
Incidentally, Lynn happened to be the name of a former roommate. She was “trans” too.
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 12:05 pm
Sheeesh, can we at least switch back to cissexist bastard please?
Although…that actually did help me to learn something about when someone else has the power to name.
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 12:08 pm
Nobody cares that one of your friends was non-kevinchigender, Mister Kevinchi-Privileged Man.
Quit playing “some of my best friends” now, okay?
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 12:09 pm
Yes, I’m sure that using the term you just chose to describe your kevinchisexist behavior taught you a lot about your own kevinchi privilege. Except not.
Because all you’ve proven here is that you don’t understand kevinchi privilege, you don’t understand how your life is affected by kevinchigender people being the “default” and you don’t want to listen either those of us who are non-kevinchi or your fellow kevinchi folks who say there is nothing wrong with the term “cis.”
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 12:12 pm
Try something for me: rephrase those sentences without recourse to any words or phrases that either incorporate “cis” and “trans” or create a binary distinction between the two groups formerly known as cis and trans.
Then try doing this hypothetical:
“Because my former roommate was trans, she was unable to obtain medical insurance after being fired from her job by her transphobic employer. She thereafter attempted to access trans-friendly services at a local LGBT health clinic, but the cissexist staff refused to so much as do an intake appointment, claiming that her trans status made her far too risky and strange to treat. She finally applied for a private catastrophe policy, but their categorical exclusion of any transsexual or transgendered person made that option unavailable, too.”
piny
1 Jul 09 at 12:12 pm
Impossible to do, piny
By the way I’m still watching, but I do have to do some work before I lose that particular cis privilege (and I do understand that it’s a cis privilege to have a decent paying job)
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 12:25 pm
oh my fucking lord. Kevin, really sorry you don’t like to be “pigeonholed,” but you know what: welcome to the damn world. One makes concessions to society, sometimes. Or else, instead of being pigeonholed as “cis” or whatever other perfectly frigging neutral term has been coined to describe -an entire group which yes you do belong to, even though undoubtedly you are also a fabulously unique person whose fabulous uniqueness is insufficiently appreciated-, one finds oneself pigeonholed as less flattering things, yes. If you don’t like it, you know…go Galt.
Seriously. This is the worst thing that ever happens to you? That you can imagine. Go sit your ass down.
really sorry PHB is/was apparently enabling this bullshit, I thought better of them. do not get.
belledame222
1 Jul 09 at 12:25 pm
also see:
“but I’m not ‘white!’ I’m an Ecru-American! I have rights too, dammit! I don’t see color! If I can’t see you, you can’t see me! STOP TALKING ABOUT THINGS I DON”T WANT TO THINK ABOUT.”
belledame222
1 Jul 09 at 12:27 pm
Exactly. That’s why we use words like “trans” and “cis.” We wouldn’t have any way to describe these things otherwise, and we really, really do need to talk about them.
piny
1 Jul 09 at 12:29 pm
I’m confused. Is someone forcing you to be here? Or in any other space where the terribly, terribly offensive use of the phrase “cis” occurs? For that matter, is someone -else- forcing you to kick and scream? Which, by the way, yes, -you- are doing here, and it’s really unseemly.
belledame222
1 Jul 09 at 12:31 pm
Oh, that was from the other board. I am here at QT voluntarily
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 12:33 pm
I’m just wondering: has anyone yet tried going to PHB and demanded repeal of the word “straight?” or “heterosexual?” -because that’s the frigging equivalent here.- Rilly fucking offensive. -bonk-
yes, that’s rhetorical, not gonna go read the whole thread, just…depressing.
belledame222
1 Jul 09 at 12:33 pm
Right. So, the other board, the putatively “LGBT” board, is -your- space, and -you- get to set the terms. Or that was the assumption. Yes?
belledame222
1 Jul 09 at 12:34 pm
Belle, I think Dyssonance did say something to that effect before Autumn pulled the “you shalt be banninated!!!” shit.
Drakyn
1 Jul 09 at 12:35 pm
vey iz mir.
oh, sorry, that was Yiddish: apologies for using a language that not everyone might have understood right away. I feel just awful about it. And for shaking my head in Yiddish over other peoples’ behavior when they did not agree to being head-shaken in Yiddish. Damn.
belledame222
1 Jul 09 at 12:37 pm
Is the LGBT board my space? As close as it gets, I suppose. Do I get to set the terms? Well, no.
LOL- I had the trap door sprung on me faster than dyssonance; though not on that particular thread. I get pretty unruly myself even in my “safe space”
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 12:42 pm
Well, are you noticing how comfortable the whole “what, there’s a ‘T’ around here? Damn, I almost forgot. They want to use what term now? Well, that’s just weird and unreasonable” feels in a board/identity that nominally “includes” ‘transgender?”
belledame222
1 Jul 09 at 12:46 pm
i.e. it’s not LGBT, it’s G….l…..(b)…
…
…
….
…….
t–oh shit, here come the complaints about having to make any sort of concession from the “G” and the “L” again, never mind! Sorry!
belledame222
1 Jul 09 at 12:47 pm
God, belledame, you’re just fucking up all over, today. :’P
Has anyone actually had further contact with Autumn or Pam over this? It seems like the sort of thing they should address. But then, I guess, if they tried to defend the policy they’d realize it’s indefensible.
Claire
1 Jul 09 at 12:48 pm
and yes, Aravosis is an epic trans-and-otherwise-misogynist putz.
belledame222
1 Jul 09 at 12:48 pm
kevinchi wrote:
It got me thinking.
I am cis and I am a lesbian. Those terms have meaning in relation to what I actually am. But:
But what I am, for real, I have no language to describe that is comprehensible. And when I try to use metaphors, pretty much no one gets it. Including people who have known me for many, many years.
In my everyday life, I have to pass as what I am not. This is a matter of basic survival. If I didn’t learn the rules of what a “person” is supposed to be in this society — learn them well enough to function and follow them passably enough — I would be in great danger every second.
I pass as what this society defines as what a person is, even though that is not what I am. I pass deliberately and for purposes of survival at a basic level. That I can pass like this is a matter of both learning and of other forms of privilege I have access to and use.
I work to pass (and it is deliberate work, involving levels of vigilance that I can’t even describe) all the time,except with one person, the only person I have ever met who knows what this is. And that’s complicated because the one who does get it has used that knowledge to dominate and persistently do me harm. Still, I find it compelling to be connected with someone who knows, I would almost say it’s “worth” the violence.
My loyalties in this kind of discussion are a little complicated.
On one hand, my response to the PHB situation is that the cis people who are objecting to the use of the term cis are clearly and obviously engaging in a dominance move. That is, a move to retain control and power, to remain (on this particular axis) the definers. To my eyes, this move is as obvious as the keyboard I am typing this comment is.
Defining what does and does not exist is a powerful tool in the maintenance of this insane system. I know this firsthand because I have the persistent lived experience of not existing in its landscape. It defines me out of existence to the point where even those who know and love me don’t know what I am and how I really perceive — and react to my attempts to describe with confusion and sometimes hostility.
I not only have to pass to survive, but I have to meet and interact with almost everyone I connect with on this landscape in which I don’t exist. That landscape is all they know and in it I don’t exist. This encourages all sorts of confusion and objectification.
This is my experience and it will not change in this lifetime. The landscape in which I exist is not only alien to most people’s perception, it is opposed to some of the basic tenets of “what reality is and isn’t” inside what we live in. In other words, the landscape in which I exist is not only alien, it is threatening.
And I have to accept this. This is my specific situation. I have no others to band together with and start naming things together. I feelthat having others and engaging in descriptive language that makes sense could be a crucial part of resisting violence (to whatever extent this is possible). I am speaking about a tool I don’t have available to me on what I am describing here. But I recognize its importance and value for those who are subject to harm and violence by a system in which you are not supposed to exist at all.
Accurate description is about the whole landscape and how it works. Because even those who aren’t supposed to exist still have to live and interact in these landscapes that say “you don’t exist.” And that can be … deeply disorienting. And disorientation is not a good space to be in for anyone who is in persistent danger everyday because of what they are.
I only speak for myself here.
Michelle
1 Jul 09 at 12:49 pm
@Kynn: QUIT TRYING TO STOP US FROM TALKING ABOUT OPPRESSION THAT KILLS US JUST BECAUSE YOU GET BUTTHURT AT BEING CALLED “CIS,” PRIVILEGED CIS MAN.
But don’t you realize that a little bit of butthurt on the part of a privileged person is so much more horrible than the deaths of oppressed people that go on every day? Because part of the way oppression is kept invisible so that people don’t see the very real damage it causes is to prevent there from being language that names it (I feel like I say this at least once a week).
It always comes down to violence coming down is invisible and/or natural, violence or hurt going up is a huge tragedy. You not wanting to be known as any other than “normal”, “real”, or “unmarked” doesn’t mean anything to me compared to what trans people get for being trans, just like the hurt feelings of privileged groups at having to have a label that says “I AM PRIVILEGED” means absolutely nothing compared to what oppressed groups go through.
And when you resist recognizing that – as you’re doing ACTIVELY here – you’re not “attempting to be an ally”, you’re reinforcing very real oppression because your poor little feelings don’t like being labelled. If this is your way of trying to help, go away and don’t even think about it again, because your passive compliance does less harm.
I don’t care about your feelings when they get in the way of stopping people from getting killed.
anarchafemme
1 Jul 09 at 12:50 pm
The bulk of my last comment was clearly directed at the cissexist who (like they almost all do) doesn’t want to be called such.
anarchafemme
1 Jul 09 at 12:52 pm
By the way I’m still watching, but I do have to do some work before I lose that particular
ciskevinchi privilege (and I do understand that it’s aciskevinchi privilege to have a decent paying job)Nice way to intentionally shove that in our face, Mr. Privileged Kevinchi Man. No, boasting about being employed is not the correct way to deal with your kevinchi privilege.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 12:59 pm
@anarchafemme, don’t worry, I understand you were talking to the kevinchisexist people, not me, even though you replied to me. :) It’s all good!
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 1:00 pm
Sheesh, it feels like I did more harm than good to myself coming here for the time being. I. am. disoriented.
I’ll get over, I almost always do.
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 1:02 pm
I’ll pass on what I’ve said to others who have written me about this, usually second hand after reading someone else’s interpretation of what occurred…
Many people are missing the point of putting a lid on that thread in question.
1) Note that it wasn’t my post nor did I comment in the thread. The post was barista Louise’s, and she and Autumn were handling the monitoring of the thread and managing the mat fights.
2) I have no problem with the term “cis” (nor do Autumn or Louise); the issue is cis was being weaponized against fellow commenters in the thread. That takes something — to turn a word into an insult for debate effect, but it happened.
3) No one was banned for using the term, nor was there an attempt to stifle the discussion. What is disturbing is that almost every thread related to transgender issues results in not only many disagreements (which in itself isn’t a problem), but very personal, negative invective tossed between commenters. I have difficulty understanding why people cannot be civil to one another regarding these issues. I understand the need for expression, but there are house rules that everyone who registers receives and they seem to go out the window on these topics.
I have always been extremely pro-trans in my blogging, I’ve always welcomed discussion and dissent, but I can’t have people continue to dump in the coffeehouse and ask for 3, 4, 5 warnings to get away with hurling invective of any kind. I am not a hall monitor, I’m a human being with a full time job trying to fit in some activism to make the world a better place for LGBTs. Sometimes shutting down a thread or deleting repeated comments that hijack a discussion are necessary. I’ve had to do it before on other topics that turned into a sparring match where the topic at hand ceased to be the discussion.
That’s not censorship or silencing; everyone is free to post on other blogs, their own blog, etc. I treat people like adults, and if they cannot accept that the community blog has a set of basic civility rules they cannot control themselves enough to adhere to, they should find another place to congregate.
I just want people to hear it from me that a lot of this anger is misdirected because of a lack of information.
Pam Spaulding
1 Jul 09 at 1:05 pm
Yes, you did, because we don’t take kindly to kevinchisexist people who won’t honestly confront their kevinchi privilege and the effects their actions have on non-kevinchigender people.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 1:07 pm
My heart goes out to kevinchi and his having a job and thus knowing he’s going to get regular meals and keep a roof over his head for the foreseeable future. Getting called “cis” must hurt so much, that it makes all those things seem bittersweet and insufficient.
anarchafemme
1 Jul 09 at 1:07 pm
hey, I haven’t always had those things anarchafemme; either the roof over my head of knowing where the next meal was coming from.
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 1:12 pm
@kevinchi: “hey, I haven’t always had those things anarchafemme; either the roof over my head of knowing where the next meal was coming from.”
Look, dude, just stop while you’re behind.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 1:14 pm
Some context for why trans women get pissed at tone arguments like the one being used at PHB:
The reason why trans women get very touchy once the tone argument is brought up is that not only has this been used to silence us, as it does any group, but it also ungenders us, implying that we are exhibiting an essentially male behaviour (a variant of this is accusing trans women of “grabbing the microphone”), justifying suspicious we have been waiting to stomp on the experience of real women all along.
This feels like such a dirty tactic, because it always comes in response to having pushed trans women into such a corner trying to have our voices heard while watching our lives carelessly dismissed by privilege. Wouldn’t you get pissed off, regardless of whatever list of descriptors you could add to your name? So, yeah, of course we’re going to start using exclamation points, sometimes many. SOMETIMES ALL CAPS, EVEN. But the hypocrisy of criticizing in trans feminists what is celebrated in cis feminists nonetheless rarely gets challenged.
(Before some cis person says they’re just exhibiting the same justified anger, IT ISN’T THE SAME. People who aren’t trans* are the dominant group. Even if they have other oppressions, they are still culturally dominant over trans people in the discussion of gender because of systemic transphobia.
And, yes, intersections make it more complex, but they don’t justify not acknowledging your privilege in some areas. I am white, and as such I have privilege over trans women of colour. I can either acknowledge that and try to be part of positive change for trans women of colour, or I can try to make it about me, which continues their oppression, and engages me in that privilege in a conscious and culpable way.)
I have at times the privilege of not being perceived as trans by certain circles of lesbians, and what I heard about trans women shocked me (and added the further abuse of making me terrified of being found out, although I am sure many will accuse me of having been an infiltrator or some even ladybot of the patriarchy). So even when it is publicly unsaid it is still part of private discussions. I don’t care what people say out loud if they’re even for a moment thinking we’re proving some deep-held belief they might have about trans women.
That’s an insult to any group of women, trans or not, and shows again the mechanism of how vitriolic responses to trans women seeking equality is functionally about expressing some pretty misogynyist ideas about women in general.
I will stand up with as much volume to defend the rights of trans women as I will for the rights of women, people of colour, victims of capitalism – any group I believe in. Just like many cis women I know. This steamrolling of women’s voices by the big bad trans women doesn’t reflect my experience or the experience of the cis women who I work with, are my friends, or I have been partners with, and it doesn’t reflect the experiences of other trans women and their cis women friends and partners either. It feels like a straw man to support transphobic presuppositions.
So we sometimes get touchy when we’re told we’re being uncivil.
gudbuytjane
1 Jul 09 at 1:28 pm
what is ironic to me , and i do my homework to the best of my ability and continue to learn, is that any gay or lesbian person would think they are cis gendered anyhow ? we aren’t not by society’s terms Now you may not have gender dissonance , but queers transgress gender roles and behavioral norms One transgresses expected sexual roles when you engage in loving someone of the same gender as yourself. (i happen to be a very genderqueer dyke) meaning i have dissonance with my birth assigned female body.
Do queers grok this ? – you may be fine with your body and sexual bits congruent , with your sexual orientation but you aren’t “cis”gendered in the eyes of those who pathologize us all,
see – you too TRANS-gress gender norms, so when you take offense to a self identified transgendered person calling you out as cisgendered its all too ironic for words. And its ill informed. Being called out on having your feelings hurt when you hear the word Cisgendered applied to you, coming from the genderqueer or transsexuals on any forum or blog to describe you is misguided and thus misygonistic and transphobic.
What are you so afraid of ? Being lumped in , being a freak ? what ? Or is it just like it felt to us :
– you want us to STFU and go away. Well we aren’t. Sorry if that is inconvenient for anyone but our lives are at stake and by the way so are yours whether you realize or not.
Those of us with gender dissonance , feel marginalized by the very people who ought to be our staunchest allies – but fear and misogyny is just too much for many gay males and radfem dykes. And as said above, we who have to come out ,to seek medical treatment, transition to alliviate gender dysphoria [sic] have no choice, no privacy about transitioning to our inborn gender indentities, (gender being between the ears and conflicting with the birth assigned sex the bits )
Privilege is invisable, esp when one is soaking in it. its willful ignornance on the part of our own supposed community – and its hurtful and yes we’re not going to sit silent or be silenced esp by one of our own , as this kind cis based (dominant culture) ignornance is culpable for the scapegoating of the feminine, its misogynistic pure and simple and yes a h/t to Julia Serano.
Is it the “cis” really that hard to understand ? a simple wiki of the word prefix “cis” cisgendered cis sexual would do those who feel so bent out of shape a world of good.
And if one is a queer “allie” who happens to be congruent with their gender roles and sexual parts and sexuality well lucky YOU !! – but please don’t conflate and don’t silence the least of us. We the T in the lgbT have been marginalized and sold out too many times.
And we’re going to speak out about the catering to those people who have privilege be it heterosexual, be it female, or male, be it white, be it wealthy, be it being gender congruent. or cisgendered. cissexual, oh there’s that pesky new term again. We cannot dismantle privilege until we recognize it.
The prefix term is neutral , its highly useful, is descriptive, and it applies to the dominant culture as well as individuals. OK spoonfed enough yet ?
Its food for thought. Job one is to de colonize one’s own mind and to keep it open. And yes as stated about by more than a few regular commenters here – we the transgendered are getting killed behind this stuff and newsflash, these same people that would kill us would also likely kill you too, if they could you discern you trans-gressing your gender role through your behaviors, choice of lovers , manner of dress etc.
Why do you think so many of the slurs against the transgendered even if they happen to be heterosexual in their sexual orientation, are gay slurs ?
So to answer the question of the thread…NO cis is NOT hostile terminology, the hostility emmenates from a cisgendered dominant culture and that includes ironically some gays and lesbians. And this hostility, its coming for you too ! In fact its already here..hate crime stats are mounting daily.
proudprogressive
1 Jul 09 at 2:41 pm
Kevinchi said:
“I am uncertain if I ever used the word “ally.” I think that I would like to be. That’s why I’m here.”
and also:
“I am not where you want me to be as far as the trans community is concerned.
Fine.
Then meet me (and everyone else) where I am at.”
What I want to say is: If your aim is to be an ally to someone, then it’s your job to meet them where they are. Not their job to meet you where you are.
So e.g. your job as an ally includes educating yourself while causing the least work possible to the people you’re trying to ally with. And in general it doesn’t include telling them how they should talk to you or what words they should use.
Also if you’re going to compare race to transsexuality, remember that in the trans community, because you’re not trans, it’s sort of like you’re the white person (if you see what I mean). So a story about one black person talking to another isn’t parallel to your conversations here with trans people. But it might clarify things (or it might not, I don’t know :-) ) to imagine: how would you want a white person to act and talk if they wanted to ally with you against racism?
hope that’s some help.
Jennifer
1 Jul 09 at 2:57 pm
I have been quietly reading this for over a day now, without chiming in. Decided it’s time.
For the record, I am a CIS woman, married to a trans woman. Therefore, I speak as a CIS woman who on a daily basis gets to witness just exactly what CIS privilege is.
CIS is just a fucking descriptor, cis folks. Get over it. Its about as neutral a term as possible, given the context. And Cis privilege IS something we cis people benefit from, whether we ask for it or not. Unless we learn to accept that as a fact, we are never really going to own up to the fact the WE need to do our share to help change it. DUH!
As a side note, Queen Autumn banished me from her little kingdom more than a month ago. I STILL feel that I did not deserve it, but it is Autumn and Pam’s right to ban whoever they wish. Now that this shit went down, I am actually proud to be in such good company. I mean seriously,whether I agree of disagree with each of you at any given time, I respect your opinions, so its good to have found where you all went (thanks, Abby).
Susan Ferman
1 Jul 09 at 3:20 pm
Thanks Jennifer
In fact, that why I came here to QT. To meet folks where they are at.
And yes, I have been finding using the analogies (which are imprefect) that I know regarding race and it’s somewhat useful, actually.
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 3:27 pm
I’m pretty sure you were meeting trans folks over on PHB, too — well, until the kevinchi privilege outbreaks displayed by you and others showed us all that the feelings of kevinchigender people are more important than stopping oppression against transgender people.
Of course, in your original comment, “meet folks where they are at” was metaphorical, and now you’ve literalized it in order to support your coming to a trans web site (after chasing us off “your” LGB site) and tossing around your kevinchi privilege (and expecting us to suck it up and give you cookies).
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 3:39 pm
I think an explanation of the difference between being hurt and being oppressed might be useful at this point for the cis privileged here.
I would, but I am too damn tired at this point.
voz
1 Jul 09 at 3:53 pm
I’m going to try this again because apparently my first comment is either hung up in moderation or was eaten. I’ve responded to people who have emailed me directly. The reason I’ve not posted (or Autumn, who has prepared a post, but has been drained by the level of misdirected anger based on the misunderstanding I’ll discuss below).
Many people are missing the point of putting a lid on that thread.
1) It wasn’t my post nor did I comment in the thread that ended up with comments turned off and several people suspended or banned. The post was Louise’s, and she and Autumn were handling the monitoring of the thread and managing the mat fights.
2) I have no problem with the term “cis” (nor do Autumn or Louise); the issue is cis was being weaponized against fellow commenters in the thread. That takes something — to turn a word into an insult for debate effect, but it happened.
3) No one was banned for using the term, nor was there an attempt to stifle the discussion. What is disturbing is that almost every thread related to transgender issues results in not only many disagreements (which in itself isn’t a problem), but very personal, negative invective tossed between commenters.
I fail to understand why people cannot be civil to one another regarding these contentious issues. I understand the need for expression, but there are house rules that everyone who registers receives and they seem to go out the window on some topics.
As everyone who has read the Blend in the past, I have been extremely pro-trans in my blogging, I’ve always welcomed discussion and dissent, but the bottom line is I can’t have people continue to dump in the coffeehouse and ask for 3, 4, 5 warnings to get away with hurling invective of any kind. Traffic to the blog has increased over 75% from a year ago; we have over 8300 registered users/commenters.
Sometimes shutting down a thread or deleting repeated comments that hijack a discussion are necessary. I’ve done it on other topics where civility has been abandoned. That’s not censorship or silencing; everyone is free to post on other blogs, their own blog, etc. I treat people like adults, and if they cannot accept that the community blog has a set of basic civility rules they cannot control themselves enough to adhere to, they should find another place to congregate.
I can’t be a full time hall monitor or referee on the blog, I’m a human being with a full-time job and a full-time blog trying to fit in some activism to make the world a better place for LGBTs; I am not perfect, none of us are, but to see how quickly the support turns from the benefit of the doubt to accusations is sad.
I do hope that some of you return as regular readers.
Pam Spaulding
1 Jul 09 at 4:10 pm
hi, kevinchi! i’m your local neighborhood trans woman dyke *bitch*. i’m local to whatever neighborhood you happen to find yourself in. haha! you can’t get away from me, cos i am everywhere. and i am MEE-E-EEN. indeed, when i use “cis” (or “kevinchi”), i personally am doing it to be MEE-E-EEN. to you. and to all your kevinchisexual buddies.
as a matter of fact, i am so MEE-E-EEN that when people talk about “that MEE-E-EEN non-kavinchi dyke”, they say things like:
“Shes a slippery one with a staple gun”
“Shes a mean one with a glue gun”
“Shes a meat hook and she’ll hang you up”
“Shes a trans-bomb and she’ll use it”
[with apologies to Tracy Bonham, "Meathook"]
when i use “cis” or “kevinchi” the harm to you will be terrible. your kevinchisexual kevinchigendered ass will be so butthurt that you’ll have no choice but to run on home and immediately have a mitch and bone session with your fellow kevinchisupremacists, crying and sobbing about your sore butts and how much work you will now have to do to get some other kevinchisupremacists to eliminate another “safe space” for us trans-bombs.
now think about this:
the harm to you: you feel insulted, your feelings are hurt, and your ego is bruised because we aren’t falling to our feet in gratitude.
the harm to us: our blood runs in the street.
who has the power here? it ain’t us, that’s for sure.
the harm to Pam Spauding: she loses a few trans readers, which will hardly make a blip on her stats.
the harm to us: as Kynn mentioned above, losing one of the VERY FEW (allegedly) safe spaces for trans folk in the blogosphere. (although i personally gave up on PHB two years ago.)
who has the power here? it ain’t us, that’s for sure.
=====
on another note: I’m thinking a bit of googlebombing is in order, using posts tagged “Pam’s House Blend”, “Pam Spaulding”, and “Autumn Sandeen”, as it seems that neither of them is willing to discuss this issue or otherwise listen to us.
thoughts? (i won’t do anything just yet.)
GallingGalla
1 Jul 09 at 5:08 pm
GallingGalla, you are fabulous and amazing as always.
I think the googlebombing is most definitely in order.
anarchafemme
1 Jul 09 at 5:14 pm
Pam appears to have deigned to respond to us embarrassing non-kevinchi folks here, but for some reason I didn’t get it with my subscription to the comments here.
Here is my reaction to it, which I’m sure will be ignored by Pam and Autumn.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 5:42 pm
Also, I’d like it if Pam Spaulding could explain a little more about “weaponized” terms. That concept seems to be one she pulled out of her ass in order to defend cis privilege.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 5:46 pm
Pam, your comments were in moderation and I was afk for several hours.
Could everyone else please refer back to this post?
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 5:51 pm
“Misogyny” = weaponized word.
“Privilege” = weaponized word.
“Homophobia” = weaponized word.
“Straight” = weaponized word.
“White” = weaponized word.
“Averse racism” = weaponized word.
“Bingo” = weaponized word.
“Check your privilege” = weaponized words.
“Tone argument” = weaponized words.
“Oppression” = weaponized words.
“Transmisogyny” = weaponized words.
I got that right, Pam?
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 5:52 pm
How can you weaponize adjectives? Do you encase them in nuclear materials and create a dirty word-bomb? Or is using the kevinchi-word that harmful to kevinchi people that it’s like dropping thousand-megaton explosives on the kevinchigendered people?
z
1 Jul 09 at 5:54 pm
I think, in the post I linked here, that cis was already weaponized by the OP, who framed the word as offensive, without really explaining why it was offensive. He also positioned trans people who dislike John Aravosis for his transphobia as unreasonable and too angry. The post itself was polarizing from the start. Once cis people are saying the word is offensive and seeing that it is getting results, it’s not all that hard to escalate.
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 5:55 pm
Oh, btw,
I realize Kynn was making a point, but I’d like the “kevinchigendered” stuff to cool off. I’m not doing this because I agree with most of what Kevinchi is saying, but because I feel like this is crossing a line that is making me, personally, uncomfortable as the owner of this blog.
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 5:57 pm
OK, retrospectively edit my post in your mind…
z
1 Jul 09 at 5:59 pm
2) I have no problem with the term “cis” (nor do Autumn or Louise); the issue is cis was being weaponized against fellow commenters in the thread. That takes something — to turn a word into an insult for debate effect, but it happened.
Really. This is a tone argument, again. I’ve written enough words on tone arguments already, if you want to read them they’re up the thread a bit.
So now any term describing privilege people object to, it can be called “weaponized”? What a shutdown! I can’t believe fucking liberals, picking up everything the can from the right wing to use when they feel like it. If you can’t respond to arguments just poison the well.
What bullshit Pam, and I can’t believe you can suggest trans people trust you, Autumn, or your readership again.
gudbuytjane
1 Jul 09 at 6:00 pm
Okay, I’ll drop the kevinchi stuff.
I will note, however, that not a single person who has objected to “cis” has ever proposed their self-chosen, self-identification for the concept. They don’t want the “right to name themselves,” they want to shut us up from talking about their cis privilege.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 6:06 pm
What bullshit Pam, and I can’t believe you can suggest trans people trust you, Autumn, or your readership again.
I said hope, not suggest or presume, that transfolk return. Most of your minds are made up, so I doubt any explanation would suffice at this point. Any and all positive work I’ve done has clearly been erased in your minds as well as any future advocacy on my part.
Pam Spaulding
1 Jul 09 at 6:12 pm
Kynn, I agree with that. It’s the derailing privileged “I don’t have that kind of privilege” defense.
(huh, I don’t see a specific entry for this in derailing for dummies, but it is a standard tactic)
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 6:13 pm
I think Pam just wants her assimilationist privilege, and is not shy about slamming or selling out trans women to do it.
This shows her character in sharp relief; like so many assimilationist homosupremacists, she chooses cis gay comfort over trans womens safety and lives.
This is no surprise. None at all. I think Pam has effectively surrendered any right to be trusted or claim to sound character with this shameless tone argument and silencing of women to protect a homosupremacist’s feelings.
She must want that gay marriage real bad now, to do this to us.
voz
1 Jul 09 at 6:15 pm
I said hope, not suggest or presume, that transfolk return. Most of your minds are made up, so I doubt any explanation would suffice at this point. Any and all positive work I’ve done has clearly been erased in your minds as well as any future advocacy on my part.
and she flounces, and takes her football and goes home!
voz
1 Jul 09 at 6:16 pm
Pam,
The reason people have made their minds up is what they’ve seen – that Autumn said “Anyone else who defends cis terminology will get trapdoored immediately,” and someone did (Dyssonance).
This doesn’t erase any positive work (in my mind) or any future advocacy, but it it makes people extremely cautious about commenting at PHB when this has happened. I know what Autumn told me about what she intended, and how things have continued despite her intentions, but not everyone is privy to that conversation and she hasn’t sent me the stuff she was planning on writing, or posted it on PHB as far as I can tell.
I’m not in the “PHB is ruined forever!” camp, but I am waiting to see what comes next.
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 6:17 pm
A good ally is not made up with single deeds done in the past and no more, but deeds continuing into the future.
A good ally is allowed to stumble, but must recognize their mistakes, apologize from them, understand why they were made, and avoid making them again.
z
1 Jul 09 at 6:19 pm
LOL, at the same time she writes this:
I said hope, not suggest or presume, that transfolk return. Most of your minds are made up, so I doubt any explanation would suffice at this point. Any and all positive work I’ve done has clearly been erased in your minds as well as any future advocacy on my part.
…Pam’s blog is encouraging LGBT people to stop giving political donations to LGBT-friendly Democratic politicians.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 6:21 pm
To be fair, I’d be a bit put off if I saw people advocating google bombing my blog.
I also don’t know Pam’s motivations, and I don’t think any of us(but Pam) know her motivations. We only know her actions, which I’m finding frustrating – I would like to know what weaponizing a word means in this context.
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 6:22 pm
A good ally is not made up with single deeds done in the past and no more, but deeds continuing into the future.
A good ally is allowed to stumble, but must recognize their mistakes, apologize from them, understand why they were made, and avoid making them again.
Yeah, this.
Kynn, do you have a link? Eh, I’ll go look.
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 6:23 pm
Quoting Michelle:
“On one hand, my response to the PHB situation is that the cis people who are objecting to the use of the term cis are clearly and obviously engaging in a dominance move. That is, a move to retain control and power, to remain (on this particular axis) the definers. To my eyes, this move is as obvious as the keyboard I am typing this comment is.”
Hivemind.
And i love being back-handed by an extended hand of peace.
Cut the crap and lay it out, Pam. Just which specific people only would you like to see back?
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 6:23 pm
A good ally is allowed to stumble, but must recognize their mistakes, apologize from them, understand why they were made, and avoid making them again.
a history is made of many steps, and I am not so rash as to pop off like this at one minor isolate stumble.
its the isolated part that is lacking here. There is a long history of hostility to trans issues there, and a privileging of trans people who “know their place.”
voz
1 Jul 09 at 6:23 pm
I think Pam just wants her assimilationist privilege, and is not shy about slamming or selling out trans women to do it.
Wow. That’s a really broad statement. How did I personally slam any transfolk? I said I have no problem with the use of “cis”. The level of incivility in all threads of the Blend have become troublesome to manage, with some of the trans-related threads being the most contentious. That’s a fact. I didn’t cause anyone to say what they said, including over-the-line insults of amongst commenters.
And as far as assimilationist privilege goes, if I were so hellbent on achieving that I wouldn’t be sitting here in NC where LGBTs have no rights whatsoever; we’d move to a gay enclave where it’s marriage 24/7. I worked hard to ensure that we just passed an anti-bullying bill to protect LGBT youth. If I was so anti-trans, why bother – just let a bill pass with only sexual orientation; no we didn’t and it wasn’t going to be submitted that way.
I understand the anger, based on what people believe was occurring in that thread, but honestly, there are too many hotheads of all stripes who don’t want to take responsibility for their actions in a lot of threads.
Pam Spaulding
1 Jul 09 at 6:29 pm
You slammed all of us, Pam, by denying us the language of OUR FUCKING LIVES!!!
Understand this, cis and trans are what we live every day.
voz
1 Jul 09 at 6:30 pm
What exactly were the comments that used Cis as a nasty word?
And why was it that I argued with binary-folk who referred to non-binary folk and pre-ops by a lot worse terminology (suggesting we are all fetishists, overt statements as well as implications we were a threat to children and cis-women, blaming us for all of societies transphobia etc) for ages and ages before they stepped in and banned anyone and yet in this case the banning of people appears to have been at breakneck speed?
Why has Cis been treated as a worse word than Fetishist?
Because I didn’t appreciate being called a mentally ill sexual deviant repeatedly on an LGBT blog for weeks and weeks and I want to know why my suffering matters less than those labelled Cis.
Battybattybats
1 Jul 09 at 6:31 pm
So, yeah, there’s an important lesson for you: No matter what “advocacy” you think you’ve done for us, what matters the most is which of these options you choose:
* “Hey trans folks, I’m sorry about the rampant cissexism on my site, and I’ll try to make it better. We all screw up sometimes, and this was us screwing up at the Blend. I’m sorry, I’ll personally try to work on the problems with cis privilege there.”
Or
* “Hey trans folks, would you stop picking fights? All the trans convos turn into flamewars because you people can’t be civil and you keep weaponizing your words against the cis people. Nobody did anything wrong — well, not me or Autumn or any cis people — but you guys are just plain rude, plus you totally misunderstood everything and your outrage is unjustified. (PS: Please come back to my high-volume blog, thanks!)”
Sadly, Pam went with the latter option.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 6:31 pm
Pam, do you think you could rephrase this:
“And as far as assimilationist privilege goes, if I were so hellbent on achieving that I wouldn’t be sitting here in NC where LGBTs have no rights whatsoever; we’d move to a gay enclave where it’s marriage 24/7. I worked hard to ensure that we just passed an anti-bullying bill to protect LGBT youth. If I was so anti-trans, why bother – just let a bill pass with only sexual orientation; no we didn’t and it wasn’t going to be submitted that way.”
…so that it doesn’t sound like a cross between:
* Asking for a cookie
* Patting yourself on the back for doing the right thing
and
* Making a threat that maybe you just might STOP fighting for trans youth in the future?
It would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 6:34 pm
To be fair, I’d be a bit put off if I saw people advocating google bombing my blog.
People were advocating this because Pam was (apparently) refusing to engage with us, as was Autumn. Their silence was more than telling (although a few days ago, Autumn used the “weaponizing” argument herself).
“Googlebombing” isn’t a DOS or anything; it’s just linking to something because someone screwed up. So, no, people saying they’re going to link to this controversy — “googlebombing” — because of Pam’s refusal to engage does not justify her getting upset with people here.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 6:38 pm
A point of info – when a diary is promoted or front paged it doesn’t necessarily reflect my POV (in fact I’ve disagreed with quite a few, and sometimes even note it in an intro); this happens quite a bit. I happened not even be in town for the first high-comment thread on Autumn’s post on Aravosis and his history with the trans community. On the second post, the one many of you have been angered by, 1) it wasn’t my post, 2) Autumn and Louise were moderating it.
I also said upthread that Autumn has written a post to reflect on the issue and speak for herself; it will go up on the Blend — there is no conspiracy to sweep people’s anger under the rug.
Pam Spaulding
1 Jul 09 at 6:42 pm
i made the mistake of posting something contrary to Sandeen’s opinion, and she all but labeled me a ‘classic transsexual’. Apparently ‘those’ women aren’t not welcome at your place if they dare to speak contrary to the dominant view there. It angered me on their behalf.
Later i asserted my boundries with a gay man on your board who insisted on speaking for me. His response was to tell me to fuck off. It’s important to note that he is a regular praise-worshipper of Sandeen.
Another poster directly asked you why his behavior was ignored. You and Sandeen ignored her.
i emailed both of your directly about it. You ignored me.
And i have no doubt now that i am considered a hot-head that’s ‘causing trouble’.
And from the beginning it never had anything to do with ‘tone’ or ‘language’. Just pure disobedience to the status quo opinion that she (and apparently you) couldn’t tolerate.
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 6:42 pm
Pam,
Hiya.
First off, let me invite you to post over at The Spectrum Cafe. http://www.thespectrumcafe.com. That’s an open and honest invite — one I’ve extended to anyone (since anyone who joins is immediately an author).
Second, some of us would return — and many will. However, there are certain points that are simply not negotiable for a great any of us, and chief among them is the idea that it was “weaponized”.
Saying that is a tone argument. It wasn’t. That’s a perceptual flaw on the part of the observers, and even if it *were* so, then given the way it was used then it would be the entire phrase it was part of (cis white gay males) that was weaponized, not merely a single part of it.
For my part, I’m always willing to give the benefit of the doubt (if I wasn’t, I wouldn’t have been conversing in the threads), and most of the people there do the same (for example, Lane, who I was discussing things with).
Point blank (and you will note I’m not going to get much applause for this): Long term, there will be little effect on PHB or its readership level and its position in the community. You and Autumn are committed to including T news, so you’ll still do such. The only way you would damage anything is if you stopped.
What this has done, however, is highlighted the need for a space that is not merely trans-affirming (such as PHB or Bilerico) but one that is as trans-centric as PHB and Bilerico are cis-centric.
And that’s a good thing. Be it marti’s transadvocate, spectrum, or some other one, we need to have a place where we can have the same sort of interaction and discourse but in a venue where we are always going to feel safe. A place where when the trans arguments get heated, they will be left to run, until the anger is gone and the real discussion takes place.
Nor is it that mids are made up, either — we are angry and hurt in general. This is a pervasive problem, and it underlies a great many of our complaints regarding the coverage and calls for action.
*We* know that by ourselves — just the T — we are straight, Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Pansexual, et al. And yet we are ignored when discussing such.
Those of who are straight feel sorta kicked out of the community at times — even when we are aware of our privilege as a result of being het.
We grow weary of our far more basic needs being flushed down the toilet by pundits calling for marriage equality.
We look on aghast when people call for DADT and *completely* fail to mention that we’ve been discharged for something not even part of that — where is the call to end our discharges?
We’re not saying write an article just about trans stuff — we are saying that when an article is written, be sure to include the trans part of it.
And remember that transfolk make up an enormous population that’s far larger than merely transsexuals (a privilege I had to overcome).
This isn’t really about the word, Pam. This is really about what happens when we point out to those people who are cis what their privilege (their subconscious ignoring of things) does to us. Its not just the gay men, its the lesbian separatists, too. its the feminists and the men’s rights groups. Its all of society.
We’ve been there since the start. We simply will not accept our old place anymore. Now we will only accept being absolutely equal, absolutely at the side.
There is another issue behind this, a more personalized one that has nothing to do with me, but that’s one best handled in private.
Simply put: affirming isn’t good enough anymore.
For my part, I say thank you for taking the time to come here and try a bit of outreach (even if it is damage control, lol).
I’d say see ya around the Blend, but its made clear that I am not welcome, and so I can’t. My issue, not yours.
But I will see ya around the internets…
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 6:42 pm
Ah, fair enough. I was confusing googlebombing with something else.
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 6:43 pm
I will deal with Pam and her ilk as a fully enfranchised peer or not at all.
Pam is not yet offering that.
voz
1 Jul 09 at 6:47 pm
Kynn@6:34
Obviously I’m not doing any of the sort in that comment. I’m just pointing out that people in this thread act as if I’m in some vacuum of empathy for transfolk or privilege (gender, race or orientation) that exempts me from discrimination of all kinds. There’s no earthly reason why I would not support equality of transfolk.
Pam Spaulding
1 Jul 09 at 6:48 pm
*wonders if she’s a hothead, lol*
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 6:53 pm
Pam, I’m looking at Battybattybats’ post, and it seems that Batty is complaining that trans people are frequently demonized and stereotyped as fetishists, as dangerous to cis women and children, painted with all manner of nasty characterizations, and that this does not get modded very quickly, if at all – and now at least one person was modded promptly for use of cis terminology, and Autumn’s stated warning, that anyone else who defends that terminology would get trapdoored.
And so, it’s not about intentions, but about actions, and what people are saying is that whatever you intend (and I realize you’re not the only one moderating, and I know none of you can read everything, especially not as soon as it’s posted), that it seems like the moderation is a bit imbalanced against trans people at this point.
Now, I wouldn’t ever ask, for example, that transphobic comments get moderated as soon as they’re posted, or that anyone be expected to read all the comments all the time, because it is a waste of time. But at the same time, there does need to be recourse for people to get oppressive language dealt with. If someone starts calling trans people fetishists or implying that trans people are too dangerous to allow near children, that should be dealt with as soon as it’s brought to anyone’s attention.
This is why I said above that intentions shouldn’t be brought into this – because then we get into discussions about whether or not you have empathy for trans people (can that or trans folk or trans men or trans women be two words, btw? adjective noun, not compound words?), or whether you’re supportive of equality for trans people.
And I don’t think that’s what’s under discussion at all, even if some people have framed it as such.
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 6:55 pm
so basically trans women talk, pam sees it as “weaponizing.” that’s stellar.
you know, i expected better from a sister.
algormortis
1 Jul 09 at 6:56 pm
edit: “And I don’t think that’s what should be under discussion at all”
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 6:56 pm
Pam,
Thank you for coming with an olive branch. I, for one, appreciate the effort, even if it’s not turning out very well.
I think that the reason that it isn’t turning out very well is that there is quite a disconnect in perception of what’s going on.
From my perspective, Autumn said in no uncertain terms that she was personally abandoning use of cis- as a prefix to describe the diametric position to trans-, and further, that she would start kicking anyone out who saw fit to defend their own use of such a construct. That this was done in the context of cisgendered people complaining about being framed as oppressors of transpeople (duh?) only worsened matters.
I do see a lot of anger, and some of it is pushing people outside of the bounds of civility. I can easily see where that would make a site-owner, an admin, or a moderator nervous. However, when Autumn stepped up and said that she would start kicking anyone who wanted to merely defend the use of cis-, however civilly they might, that went beyond simple moderation into silencing.
Regardless of your own personal intent, regardless of what brought Autumn to say those things, regardless of anything you two have done for the community as a whole, that was a very large faux pas so far as I’m concerned.
Couple this situation with the fact that there seems to be an epidemic of threads getting closed, comments getting locked down, etc, on PHB the moment the topic turns to cisgender privilege, and yes, people are nervous that PHB is no longer a safe place for trans people to discuss their issues. We’re all worried that the moment we start, a member of the privileged class will wander in, claim offense, and that a moderator will side with them.
I can’t blame anyone for not feeling PHB is a safe place for trans discussions under the current climate. I think a couple of days ago, if Autumn had taken back what she’d said, apologised for crossing the line, and not gone the extra step of making good on her threat to dyssonance, people would have still been hurt and surprised, but things would be salvageable. I fear things have moved beyond that, now, and it would be much more complicated to undo the damage.
I’m truly sorry that all of this happened, and I wish it would be easy to mend this rift, but it’s going to take a lot of time, effort, understanding, and humility to fix things.
ellysabeth
1 Jul 09 at 6:57 pm
Pam, the fact that you are getting defensive, and dissembling, and justifying your position, and talking about “civility” which you should know is a tactic to silence oppressed people when we dare to get noisy, tells me that you are not open to listening to us or challenging your own privilege. and your claims that we, the group that is oppressed in comparison to your cis privilege, are “weaponizing” the word “cis” while allowing your cis readership to weaponize “freak”, “monster”, “bitch”, “tranny”, etc against us without comment, is offensive in the extreme.
and i will add, that i left PHB two years ago when i and several other trans women were slandered repeatedly by cis gay men, who called us “freak” and “monster” and “bitch”, who told the lesbians among us that “trans women can’t be lesbians”, and who raked our cis allies who were defending us over the coals, not to mention the incidents that battybattybats described.
you did nothing. you did not ban, you did not close comments, you did not issue mod warnings, you did not remind the cis readership about “civility”. nothing.
i left PHB after putting up with month after month of shutting up when you cis readership othered us, fetishized us, and slandered us over and over again, while you did nothing, or at most issued mild and ineffective warnings.
the recent situation is not an isolated misstep. it is part of a pattern. you may on occasion post articles about trans issues, but something is missing here, and has been missing all along.
i am very disappointed that Autumn has seen fit to initiate this particular round of silencing tactics, and that you are endorsing and participating in said silencing.
i cannot speak for others, but i will not be back to PHB. ever. Pam, you have completely lost my trust and i will not permit you to speak for me or to position yourself as an ally. Autumn has also completely lost my trust and i will not permit her to position herself as an activist for our rights.
GallingGalla
1 Jul 09 at 6:58 pm
While I absolutely appreciate the support this isn’t about me.
Its about the silencing of our *combined* voices. I’m an annoying cuss and I know it — being banned is a fairly familiar thing for me.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 7:01 pm
i’m a semi-hystrionic independent agent. Go ahead and feel free to address just my gripe, Pam.
i’m still waiting.
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 7:06 pm
yes, dyss, but what Autumn did to you specifically was unconscionable, and if that’s how things go at PHB, it’s a sign of a larger problem.
algormortis
1 Jul 09 at 7:07 pm
Semi-histrionic?
Hmmph. Ain’t nuttin histrionic about you, ATG :D
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 7:07 pm
Autumn just let me know that her diary is finally finished and it should be published soon and address the moderation of the thread in question.
Pam Spaulding
1 Jul 09 at 7:07 pm
agreed on a personal level, algomortis, but I think that’s best handled as a separate issue (one of abuse of authority, perhaps).
I am, however, not really qualified to speak to much to it — I’m too close to the issue in that I’m the sbuject.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 7:09 pm
She best not be defensive — it will only make things worse.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 7:10 pm
Pam Spaulding, nobody here really cares about your intentions. Our focus is on the REAL WOR:LD effects of your selective silencing of trans voices while endorsing the commenters who openly attack us without censure.
You have by your actions, what you have ignored, and the actions of others that you endorsed with your silence, made Pam’s House Blend toxic and unsafe in concrete demonstrable ways for trans women and all trans people in general.
Note well that nowhere are intentions referenced in this comment. The actions of Pam Spaulding at Pam’s House Blend are harmful enough on their own, and need to stop.
voz
1 Jul 09 at 7:13 pm
Nothing ‘semi’ about me, maybe.
The refusal in general to directly address those of us directly in front of them just adds to the air of pretentious and aloof indifference.
Better be careful falling off that horse from all the way up there, and landing down here with the little people.
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 7:14 pm
It’s a little horse.
’bout yea high…
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 7:16 pm
@dyssonance A..hobby horse?
voz
1 Jul 09 at 7:17 pm
yes, dyss, but what Autumn did to you specifically was unconscionable, and if that’s how things go at PHB, it’s a sign of a larger problem.
…and so far as anyone reading the thread was concerned, it was done to illustrate that she was willing to make good on her threat to silence anyone who disagreed on the matter.
It wasn’t about you, true, but the banning gave every impression of being one of several silencing tools targeting not merely dyssonance, but everyone involved in the conversation (or at least everyone who might disagree, even civilly).
Intended or not, that’s the message I took from the act.
ellysabeth
1 Jul 09 at 7:18 pm
*checks*
more broomstick style, lol
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 7:18 pm
@ellysabeth — thank you! That’s one of the things that I’m too close to see, and would never have thought of it in those terms. You are absolutely correct.
I rescind previous statement.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 7:20 pm
@ellysabeth is much more eloquent than i, but that was my point. thanks for making it look good.
i’m also kind of wondering why it is that nobody’s using threats and banning to make the oppressor class in this matter act in a way that reflects “civilty.” i’d ban many of my fellow members of the oppressor class, but apparently it’s better to go after trans women. way to fail.
and i’m quite serious about the “expected better from a sister” crack, Pam. as a queer woman of color, i kind of hold my people to a higher standard because we know what multipoint oppression is like firsthand.
algormortis
1 Jul 09 at 7:29 pm
That starement and act of banning shut down the entire conversation. I for one did not post further because of it.
And it made me feel really unwanted at PHB, even moreso than the previous flamewars I faced for standing up for the term Transgender, for crossdressers, for non-binary-gender folk etc. Because it was a threat from authority about even discussing a word.. a word with no decent replacement (seriously non-trans is NOT acceptible to me, it makes being Trans an exception! It’s othering and unbalanced). Like trying to have a discussion abou race when the word White is forbidden! (And c’mon the word White has been used as an insult by some people my entire life so how is it less weaponised than Cis?)
Battybattybats
1 Jul 09 at 7:31 pm
She best not be defensive — it will only make things worse.
I don’t really care what she says now. She can make nice-nice, but I don’t see how it changes my opinion of her. The ban threat was just the last of a series of things that have set her apart from the kind of trans dialogues I want to be part of.
I am an anarchafeminist, and my approach to trans activism comes from a working class, collective, social justice mindset. I have been in organizer roles on some actions, but they have never been my action. I am always open for criticism of my work, too, and invested in being open, honest, and transparent in that process. I hope it is always clear I can be called on my shit and I won’t shut you down and go home.
Autumn does her own kind of activism on trans issues, and that’s fine, it is her choice. It doesn’t mean I find it useful or community focused, and because of my background I find unilateral decisions like the ones she makes to be signs of investment in hierarchies I want to dismantle. Her goals, politically, appear to be quite different than mine.
Ultimately, in the world I live in what she did was the equivalent of crossing a picket line. It made clear where her solidarity lies, and if there’s one thing I’ve learned in my years doing this it’s that when you make space for someone to have a second opportunity to screw you they often do.
I’ll read the diary, sure, but it’ll take a lot of positive action before I’ll consider paying attention again to her activities on behalf of trans women.
gudbuytjane
1 Jul 09 at 7:33 pm
The net effect was to silence and drive away trans women, deny our experiences, and set a standard that privileges cis gay and lesbian voices above verifiable truth and the experiential reality of trans lives.
This is not acceptable, but Pam Spaulding insists on coming into a trans centric space to defend it.
Pam Spaulding, your ass is showing. Next move, please?
voz
1 Jul 09 at 7:39 pm
@gudbuytjane: I agree (although in my case, I’m gone completely even if I did want to come back) — my point is that any kind of defense that is done in whatever the post is, at this point, is merely going to make things worse.
The only thing I can see that would not make it worse is to completely apologize, admit wrong and culpability, and let it go from there.
Trying to defend any part of what was done is only going to upset people further. From my POV, all I see is a major screwup that’s going to take a while to peter out.
unlike some other groups, we’ve got a long memory these days.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 7:40 pm
Lisa — don’t release that one moderated comment of mine.
Its out of place and unnecessary.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 7:43 pm
Pam: It wouldn’t actually take a lot to win a bunch of enthusiasm back. It would take, mostly, laying down as a matter of blog policy that it’s the responsibility of straight people to come to terms with the language that lets LGBT people talk about their experiences, the responsibility of white people to do it with the language of people of color, the responsibility of men to do it with the language of women, and the responsibility of cis people to do it with the language of trans people. In each case, those in the dominant group need to learn to see themselves as having an identity, and seeing that it associates them with oppressors, and seeing their responsibilities to support the liberation of others. In each case, there should be some simple boilerplate about the responsibility of those in the dominant group to listen, learn, and to suspend judgment and defensiveness while doing so.
This doesn’t seem hard and I’m at a loss to know why it seems so to anyone with posting authority at your site.
Ceri B.
1 Jul 09 at 7:47 pm
Dyss, do you mean the one with a link?
That got autospammed for some reason.
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 7:48 pm
@lisa: yeah, that one. Its germane in my mind, but might just make things worse.
I have mine set to autospam 1 or more links as well, so not a worry.
Your call, but I think it would be overkill.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 7:49 pm
Considering the apology for reporting the false-hate-murder story that initially fooled lots of sites seemed easy enough an apology for this should be.
Cracking down on people being hostile to an entire group does not need the banning of an entire word. Thats taking a political position on a term that is not and was not needed. And as I said it’d be nice if cracking down on hostile generalisations was consistent and fair.
Sure Autumn likely got overstressed and made a rash emotional decision. Who hasn’t made that kind of mistake? I know I sure have. But it was a bad decision with bad unintended consequences.
Battybattybats
1 Jul 09 at 7:50 pm
Autumn’s post will go live at 9AM ET tomorrow morning so that more people will be able to see it than if it publishes during the night and scrolls down the page.
Pam Spaulding
1 Jul 09 at 7:50 pm
Dyss, I have mine set to auto spam on more than one link, and it still puts comments with one link in spam.
I just dug comments by Kevinchi and Gudbuytjane out of the filter.
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 7:51 pm
Quote gubuytjane:
“Autumn does her own kind of activism on trans issues, and that’s fine, it is her choice. It doesn’t mean I find it useful or community focused, and because of my background I find unilateral decisions like the ones she makes to be signs of investment in hierarchies I want to dismantle. Her goals, politically, appear to be quite different than mine.”
Hivemind.
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 7:51 pm
@Pam: lol my bf was a bit disappointed (he’s following this silently) — he can’t access PHB from work so will have to wait until the evening.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 7:53 pm
I think Pam Spaulding needs to listen and act, not send a token trans woman out to take the fall for her actions on her blog.
Silencing trans women and others is no longer without consequences, Pam Spaulding. Those days are over!
voz
1 Jul 09 at 7:55 pm
@dyssonance: Oh, totally, and I apologize if it seemed like I was going off in your direction. I’m still a bit passionate about all this.
Yeah, an honest apology would be a step in the right direction, but anything less, or an “I’m sorry you were offended” dodge will just rub salt in.
If nothing else, this entire affair has at least got a lot of cis people who aren’t invested in denying that term both thinking about it, and discussing it, while also being shown a prime example of how cis privilege actually manifests itself.
@algormortis: Oh, come on, it’s not like people suggested that trans women might use cis* to divide populations for annihilation like the Nazis did in World War II… err… yeahhhh…
Oh, Fritz, no matter what comes of all this, I’ll miss your utterly ridiculous sense of self-importance.
gudbuytjane
1 Jul 09 at 7:57 pm
i don’t think Sandeen is token.
i place most of the responsibility on her shoulders.
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 8:03 pm
I don’t think Autumn is a token, and she’s posting about this because she basically set it off with the warning.
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 8:06 pm
And I think Autumn is aware of what she set off.
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 8:16 pm
I agree, Lisa. She’s one of us, and she’s not unfamiliar with the many different places around the web.
I’m fairly certain she’s very much aware of what she’s done and the perception of it.
And she’s likely conflicted, as well, I’d think. But then, that’s the malcom x in me thinking back…
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 8:18 pm
OMFG is picking jaw off the ground ! after reading fritz’s comment. my gender is rage now too. I mean wtf was that and then d’glen oh this is far worse than i had previously realized. i saw dyss get trap doored but to allow the cis domination to continue like that WTF ?!
that olive branch feeling that usually over takes me – sooner or later is gone.
That comment by fritz and d’glen is actually triggered flashbacks to the blood letting of 07 -08 the americablog threads. I feel like i need a shower ! How the hell did fritz and lane not get banned what is up with that ? i guess the 200 + explain that – and the nerve kevinchi coming over here to try and understand…this is NOT rocket science. And Fuck no the Blend is not a safe place for me or any genderqueer or trans people. FUCK NO ! – Pam i wanted so much to put this behind us – but how could those comments slide ? Godwin’s law ? HOW could louise or Autumn let that go ? i am agast.
walk a mile in my shoes dude ! I tried all my life to empathize with those who lack the privilege i have by virture of being white, of being born into a comfortable family (however dysfunctional) being able to get an education,
ARE we transgendered people that foriegn to you cisgendered people ? We bleed , we eat , need , god dammit that was inexcusable much more than a faux pas. MUCH MORE.
* so if cis is confusing and hostile sounding to anyone cisgendered : do whatever you have to do but if you give a crap about the T in the lgbT : Get the fuck over it. learn. listen if you really want to understand and be an ally.
Its not rocket science. Let us speak, what gets dished out to us is far worse..ffs that fucker fritz just compared trans women to nazis gudbuytjane i had not seen that comment. so thank you for that – i have been grappling with the rage and now i got it my own self.
going back to the blend – shit i had wanted to forgive so badly i truly truly did – but i don’t see how i can now ever ever ever..not safe at all.
proudprogressive
1 Jul 09 at 8:25 pm
Likely at least semi-OT to everyone else here but me, but:
Anonymous-T-Girl, could you please say more about what you mean by “hivemind”? You used the word a couple of times (7:51 pm and 6:23 pm July 1).
Michelle
1 Jul 09 at 8:27 pm
I have never seen a discussion of “cis as an insult” or ‘weaponised’ or whatever else that had any reasoning to it other than “trans people aren’t letting me pretend that my ease of not thinking about these issues is anything other than privilege.”
If Pam is actually interested in responding to this thread with anything other than suggested links to her forum, I would be interested in a pointer to an exception.
Any exception.
And some cissexual whining about how it hurts his feelings is not an exception. It’s an example.
Dw3t-Hthr
1 Jul 09 at 8:27 pm
Hivemind means something like “I agree with this comment.” Or “You read my mind.”
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 8:29 pm
People make mistakes and I think Autumn has done good things.
I always accept people trying to redeem themselves and make up for past mistakes. Better they get it eventually than stubbornly stick to doing wrong forever.
So I have hopes that autumn and Pam will think long and hard about this and start to address the cissexism and transphobia in the broader GLB community and at PHB.
It’s worth our own community pondering that too as one of the reasons TG discussions ther have been so heated have involved TG Vs TG bias and hostility. There’s too much anti-CD and GQ stuff amongst some parts of the TS population and too much anti-TS and homophobia amongst the CD population.
And talking about pandering to Cis-concerns! With so many in the CD community calling themselves ‘straight’ and being married or in relationships with Cis-women there are massive internalised transphobia issues and ciss-concern-focus thats keeping that community mainly stagnant and closetted and homophobic and ignorant of it’s cissexual privilege.
There are some of us working on these but its a big problem. One holding back a huge section of the TG population.
Battybattybats
1 Jul 09 at 8:36 pm
Ultimately, in the world I live in what she did was the equivalent of crossing a picket line. It made clear where her solidarity lies, and if there’s one thing I’ve learned in my years doing this it’s that when you make space for someone to have a second opportunity to screw you they often do.
THIS.
GallingGalla
1 Jul 09 at 8:37 pm
group think = hivemind
silence = tacit approval
not interupting prejudice = complicity in prejudice.
thats my take at least. fwiw
proudprogressive
1 Jul 09 at 8:37 pm
Yes, Autumn has responsibility, but the blog owner has responsibility too, and should act/speak on the blog’s behalf.
z
1 Jul 09 at 8:40 pm
Of the same mind.
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 8:46 pm
I think another difference between these two examples is this: LOTS and LOTS of trans people still use “cis.” They consider it a necessary term. It plays an important part in how they frame their arguments, how they see their activism and their identities. If a blog wants to be supportive of a community, it needs to honor the broad threads of political belief within that community. It can’t shut people down when they represent the more popular intragroup view.
piny
1 Jul 09 at 9:02 pm
Yes, Piny, this too.
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 9:07 pm
This is my last attempt at communicating the issue to the PHB folk, so I will paraphrase a popular meme there:
In language you’ll understand, Blenders.
gudbuytjane
1 Jul 09 at 9:28 pm
@gudbuytjane
Yes!!!
!!*THAT*!!
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 9:30 pm
manual trackback:
Pam Spaulding and Autumn Sandeen: i have a question
regarding Fritz’s comment.
trigger warning for graphic description of violence, extreme transmisogyny, and anti-semitism.
GallingGalla
1 Jul 09 at 9:32 pm
Maybe it is rocket science for me. I know little or nothing about cis privilege or how it operates in my life and in my dealings other than what I’ve learned here in the blogosphere.
I don’t deal with trans in my daily life anywhere else.
And at least I’m not trying to avoid it. Not today, anyway.
I do appreciate the communication though. But I am no more responsible for your feelings and indignation (oh, my, he had the nerve to show his face over here!)
than you are of mine.
There maybe be an analogy to race, though.
Maybe cis is not analogous to another black person calling me the n-word. It might be analogous to another black person calling me a “white boy” though.
I have some experience with that.
I was the reciepient of anti-white assults from a very young age up until the present day. Usually, those assults would be accompanied with statements like “you talk white”, “you talk funny”, you smart like a white boy”. I was the receipient of bullying, taunting, you name it. Still am at times. Some of the trans folk I hung around as a college dropout said many of the same things. He’s from a rich family, etc., I heard that shit all of the damn time.
(he truth to that was…I was out on the street by choice in part (I left before my mom kicked me out) and I did have relatives that were willing to take me in. I can only assume of the transwomen that I knew in those days did not have that privilege.
It wasn’t until I was an adult that I was able to unpack a lot of that. And while I felt hurt and marginalized in the black community (and I still do a lot of times), I also realized that I took many things for granted.
I began to realize my privilege.
Mostly it was something that I can call non-economic class privileges. I was taught to question. I learned to read at an early age because damn near everyone in my family read. I went to private schools, etc.
In the context of my neighborhood and in some circles of my family I was, yes, privileged in comparison.
Oh, and as a weapon against being hurt and marginalized I had no problem flaunting that privilege, at times.
As I said, and I will repeat, some of it is rocket science to me, some of it not so much. Given time, maybe none of it will be.
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 9:33 pm
Maybe I have dug a home for myself, though. Really, very little can be accomplished, I guess, until I hit bottom (and I know a little bit about that; it’s a painful but necessary process)
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 9:37 pm
@Kevinchi,
second half of http://www.thespectrumcafe.com/?p=24
Reference here this, as well: http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/how-to-check-your-cis-privilege/
third, back at PHB: http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/11671/hetereosexual-privilege-some-talking-points
Fourth, core basis: http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf (PDF file)
Fifth: read them. All of them.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 9:39 pm
Kevinchi — fee free to write me — I have some homework for you (that might show up if Lisa checks the cue for the post being held for too many links).
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 9:41 pm
Umm, Kevin, the closest race-analogy is if a white person told you that you were not allowed to call them white/Caucasian/etc. because they were just Normal with a normal color skin-tone.
Drakyn
1 Jul 09 at 9:41 pm
Dude, google for “cis privilege checklist”. Google is not rocket science.
If you don’t know anything about it, why don’t you find out something about it?
z
1 Jul 09 at 9:42 pm
kevinchi, here’s a cis privilege checklist.
It’s a starting point.
Also, this post about transphobic words and actions.
I don’t think unpacking privilege is rocket science, but I do think it is hard for people to unpack their own privilege, whether or not they experience oppression in other ways. In a lot of ways, the nature of privilege is the ability to not think about it or the implications of having it versus someone who does not have it (and experiences oppression due to that lack).
Largely, what it takes is listening – or rather, what it took for me to deal with my own privilege was listening. That’s not always an easy step, but it’s a vital step. Otherwise, there’s no chance for understanding.
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 9:42 pm
@drakyn: we’ve told him that before.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 9:42 pm
kevinchi:
I don’t deal with trans in my daily life anywhere else.
…you don’t knowingly deal with trans PEOPLE. your phrasing mirrors closely the type of toxic language used on the MWMF boards, that used to pollute Technodyke, etc. I think you meant people, i do, but when you stop seeing trans folks as a borg and start seeing them as people, with hands and lives and faces and feelings and thoughts, it might prove beneficial for your working on your transphobia.
algormortis
1 Jul 09 at 9:46 pm
Thanks, dyssonance
kevinchi
1 Jul 09 at 9:48 pm
Dyssonance’s formerly spamtrapped link comment here.
Lisa Harney
1 Jul 09 at 9:48 pm
thanks Lisa :D (you are such a great woman)
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 9:50 pm
Sorry Dyssonance, with so many comments I forgot if we did or not. And I figured that maybe with repetition he’d learn it. -__-
Drakyn
1 Jul 09 at 9:56 pm
Sorry, but I have to call BULLSHIT on Pam.
I find Pam’s statement about “four or five warnings” totally disingenuous. I am not trans, I am a cis spouse and I got banned in April, merely for standing up to a poster who had posted an attack on my wife, who had previously (perhaps deservedly–it was borderline) been banned by Autumn. All I did was stand up for a trans woman who had disagreed too strongly with Autumn in the past; I did NOT break the TOS, and I most certainly did NOT get “four or five warnings”–I got NO warning, although I found out from the other poster that Autumn had (about two minutes before banning me) sent me a “warning”, with a subject line of “Knock it the fuck off”. (Real professional, from our new media “journalist”). Well guess what? I did not get it because we have children, and it got blocked due to the profanity in the subject line. When I e-mailed Pam, the response I got was that no warning was necessary, because there was one in the original post–despite the fact that I did not violate the TOS. She also had the nerve to say that my behavior was “embarrassing”. REALLY? But allowing a post to remain up, when it attacked an innocent person who is banned and can’t defend herself is A-O.K.?
And Autumn went further than just banning me:
Autumn posted an update to the original post, in which she stated as a FACT, not an opinion, that the other poster and I had engaged in “horizontal violence”–you know, right at the top of the post, where people reading the original post and not the comments would be led to believe that I did something I did not do–at worst, I helped someone to “hijack” a thread by continuing to (politely) stand up to a bully. Autumn responded by attempting to trash my reputation out of anger, and Pam allowed it to stand. If you Google the user name that I had been posting under all over the ‘net for TEN YEARS, Autumn’s accusation, stated as a FACT is the first thing that comes up. Autumn intentionally tried to trash my reputation out of sheer spite–yet THAT is also A-O.K. with Pam?
At the absolute worst I helped a troll to hijack a thread, because the moderator did not do her job and shut it down when the person both lied outright and immediately (in the first comment) launched into an ad homimem attack on my wife–but THAT was allowed, because the attack was on someone that Autumn disagreed with.
This may seem a bit off-topic, but it goes to a pattern that has grown over the past few months: Any trans person or ally who disagrees too strongly with Autumn on “trans issues” will eventually get banned–and Autumn’s definition of disagreeing too strongly has broadened exponentially. Period. End of story.
Yet I still continued to read, and link to, the Blend, right up to this fiasco (and yes, Pam, I read the whole thing first-hand, I would not speak so strongly based on second-hand information), coupled with the way that Autumn treated Louise and Cindi K over an innocent (and well-intended) mistake. Well, no more. I will be damned if I am going to give them the web traffic. I am not about to help promote a site that has gone so far as to ban a whole slew of people unfairly, including Dyss–one of the very few opposing voices still allowed–for merely using a WORD that is only a pejorative in the minds of a few privileged people, simply to “make an example of her”.
Hey, Autumn, why don’t YOU knock it the fuck off?
Susan Ferman
1 Jul 09 at 10:04 pm
Sorry, Lisa,
Autumn is clearly a token, but she also has agency, and knew what she was doing. That is why she is welcome there, and so many of us aren’t.
Autumn’s deliberate actions do not exempt her.
voz
1 Jul 09 at 10:04 pm
@Voz:
House and field, hon, house and field
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 10:07 pm
There is so much hatred in this world i don’t want to add to it. So much strife. We are an oppressed demographic the oppressors win , when eat our own. Not a one of us is perfect. I most certainly am not. Its time to breath. pause and reflect as Shark – fu would say. Some people our advocates do deserve the benefit of the doubt – some clearly are willfully malicious.
So much hurt anger and not to mention the obvious but this is the freaking internet. The Blend has a set up that is basically a free for all – its easy to miss things in long threads with multiple replies.
It helps nothing when we eat our own. Sometimes i too get to angry to listen. Sometimes i am so busy transmitting i don’t let information in – we are humans all of us. – I feel so sad. I believe that Autumn and Pam have only the best intentions i truly do. Things can go wrong. They often do. – how can i ask the world in general for tolorance and understanding if i am so quick to judge without all the facts which as a reader and commenter i cannot possibly have. Kevinchi i apologize for speaking about you in a sarcastic way. I was so triggered at the time. after reading a fritz person compare my sisters to nazis. I am a lover not a fighter. I could never take the heat of writing on a big blog. Internet flame wars – not for me i always always lose. And i am so angry at our government at the fundi’s at the hrc, at those who marginalize and murder us trans people..it comes out sideways at times. ok. enough about me. I just don’t want to ever be around gay white men people like Avorosis and that ilk and of course some of those types hang on the Blend because it is a Blend. hence that’s what makes it feel unsafe for me. These people, hate on the trans people of this world, would scapegoat us for the woes of the lgbTq demographic. You are not one of those at least you are trying. And have humility and honesty the least i can do is return that in kind.
It sucks whenever the oppressed become the oppressor.
There needs to be time for making peace.
proudprogressive
1 Jul 09 at 10:10 pm
@pp/rr: hence why we have TSC now. It a place for our voices.
We’ll have our own issues, as we grapple with our own problems — but they will be our issues of privilege, not someone else’s.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 10:24 pm
@Dyss
House and field, hon, house and field
I kno.
voz
1 Jul 09 at 10:24 pm
Bullshit, PP. there’s benefit of the doubt and then there’s deliberately blind.
‘Easy to miss things in long threads’? One of Sandeen’s cis gay sycophant followers told me to fuck off, *and more than one person pointed it out*. We were deliberately ignored, and he was allowed to run unchecked.
Sandeen’s ‘best intentions’ are clear. Squash dissent and solidify power in her little fiefdom.
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 10:27 pm
@dyss yes i bookmarked it :)
proudprogressive
1 Jul 09 at 10:27 pm
That’s the big reason its such a mess, too — AS’s way of handling things is pretty much being pushed off on her (Pam’s said as much above) and so the fault of much of this is coming to rest at her feet.
We reap what we sow. All of us — even I, in all my glorious perfection (no one does a more perfect me than me, ya know…).
As what said before: intentions are wonderful. Intentions are admirable.
I know a fairy tale of a woman who wanted to make the world the most peaceful place possible, filled with butterflies and puppy dogs and vast fields with flowers. It was her intention to end all war, all hunger, all pain and suffering. She did it, too, in the fairy tale, for she was a powerful magician.
Who, as a result of her intentions, had destroyed her kingdom to make it the way she wanted.
Intentions do not bespeak actions with certainty. I know for a fact it is the intention of Pam to be friendly and *affirming* (not centric).
But good intentions pave the road to heaven or hell, and someone took a wrong turn.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 10:36 pm
Ok, I’ve got my rare glass of Reisling icy cold, seven tabs for research, and a night dedicated to trying to make a news site.
Cause problems need solutions, and that’s what I prefer to focus on.
But I’m sorta weird that way…
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 10:38 pm
I hear you anon T Girl i am having it out with one on Face book right now in fact. I don’t know the heart or mind of Autumn Sandeen. I know she has done some great good for instance the KRXQ thing and has made some real blunders. And honestly i have not gone to the Blend all that much over the last yr simply because of the kind of thing you site. And the always ever present TRANSPHOBIA that is allowed to run as u say unchecked. Sickened me.
I have zero tolorance for that kind of bullshit. I used to go for the news – the comment sections often left me quite ill so i stopped reading them. lately i posted again there a couple of times, but i stopped clicking in after the other day over this “cis” business just couldn’t believe it ! Indeed it happened and it sucks. And its been a pattern its true. Its gone on for a long time now. And as said above that blog will not miss our traffic. It won’t. Its their loss really – as our group the T is the heart and soul of the lgbT imho. At 52 i can safely say that i have been an activist since age 16 lived on both coasts and the southwest. Started groups in 83 to help the very gay men that hate on me now.
All this – and right after Pride month just makes me sick. The letting the Trans bashers and sychophants run unchecked is a big problem at the Blend.
proudprogressive
1 Jul 09 at 10:39 pm
There are many places to act, like the TFHEMP, the Spectrum Cafe, and Transprose’s work.
We have positive places to go and work rather than rail against a woman with a history of oppressing us, and unwillingness to listen.
The choice is ours. I say, time to build.
I only linked once to beat the spaminator.
voz
1 Jul 09 at 10:46 pm
Oh. My. Gawd. Trans women compared trans women to Nazis?
I feel ill. I can’t step away from Pam’s House Blend for 48 hours to just recharge without absolute hell breaking loose.
I am so sorry. I’m having a difficult time believing there was a comparrison of trans women and trans people to Nazis at Pam’s House Blend, and no other Barista caught it or challenged it — or even told me about it.
This has gotten so viral, and so out of hand. I have no idea what to do at this point. I now have seen so much hate now that causing people to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Well, I banned the person who made the Nazi comment, but I can’t help but think there is no fixing this.
I just can’t imagine how gay and trans people are going to work together to pass hate crime legislation or a fully inclusive ENDA when we haven’t learned how to walk the earth as brothers and sisters. I think that dropping trans people from civil rights bills is going to seem a bit more palatable now.
The night seems so dark to me now that I can’t see the stars — there just doesn’t seem to be any room for hope or love. I honestly don’t understand the embracing of bitterness and anger as tt just doesn’t seem there’s going to be much of a future for any of us…for all of us. I don’t understand why people who seem to should be natural allies fighting our broader community’s social justice issues together.
And on a bitter note myself, to think this all began from me critizing a gay man for not apologizing to we trans people — for critizing him for implying that we T people should not be part of his “gay community.” Wow. What the hell was I thinking? We’re such great allies within the LGBT community ourselves, and work so well with others, y’know?
I feel ill. On so many levels for so many reasons, I feel so ill.
Autumn Sandeen
1 Jul 09 at 10:48 pm
Comments sections are sometimes just digestive noises best left ignored. Other times, not so much.
The radio station hijinx are the first time i have actually seen Sandeen actually do something, and i’m just going to come out and say it. i wasn’t impressed with her beyond getting the boycott info out there.
i was absolutely floored by the woman that went with her to the station. i called in sick to work and listened to the whole thing live, transcribing and making personal notes as it went along. Sandeen spent some amount of time at the beginning talking about herself, and then…that was pretty much it, other than some ill-chosen scripture quote if memory serves.
Her partner in justice on the other hand verbalized everything i was thinking out loud to my boyfriend, almost *to the word* in some instances (very amusing for him throughout the session, claiming i found a spiritual twin).
She was someone i could get behind in devoted support. Her expertise is my deepest emotional weakness. Trans kids and what they suffer through.
Sandeen? Yeah….no thanks.
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 10:52 pm
Perhaps it’s time we started creating a group trans-centred space or two to counter that these things keep happening. That could be something really positive to come out of this.
Rebecca
1 Jul 09 at 10:53 pm
Awww. Feel mistreated? Enough at least to respond to the little people?
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 10:54 pm
…I’m having a difficult time believing there was a comparrison of trans women and trans people to Nazis at Pam’s House Blend, and no other Barista caught it or challenged it — or even told me about it.
Uh, Autumn? That statement was made after you said that anyone defending the use of “cis” would be banned.
Here’s a hint for you: Telling trans people that you’ll ban them for using non-cis-centric language makes those trans people really unwilling to go running to you or other admins. You’ve already proven that you when it comes to trans people getting it from cis people, you’ll side with the cis people. Why would we tell you about it? Doing so — in the context of that thread — risks a banning, based on the threat you made.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 10:58 pm
Well, I banned the person who made the Nazi comment, but I can’t help but think there is no fixing this. I just can’t imagine how gay and trans people are going to work together to pass hate crime legislation or a fully inclusive ENDA when we haven’t learned how to walk the earth as brothers and sisters. I think that dropping trans people from civil rights bills is going to seem a bit more palatable now.
Learning to walk the earth as brothers and sisters goes both ways, Autumn. Cis people learning not to refer to and treat trans people as other, and cis people learning not to flip their shit when called on their cis privilege, is fundamental to that.
Dropping trans people from civil rights is going to seem more palatable? Because trans women insisted that being cis not be the centre, the default? Shutting up and taking the crumbs we’re handed is no option for opposing oppression where I’m from.
Rebecca
1 Jul 09 at 10:59 pm
…I’m having a difficult time believing there was a comparrison of trans women and trans people to Nazis at Pam’s House Blend, and no other Barista caught it or challenged it — or even told me about it.
Uh, Autumn? That statement was made after you said that anyone defending the use of “cis” would be banned.
Here’s a hint for you: Telling trans people that you’ll ban them for using non-cis-centric language makes those trans people really unwilling to go running to you or other admins. You’ve already proven that you when it comes to trans people getting it from cis people, you’ll side with the cis people. Why would we tell you about it? Doing so — in the context of that thread — risks a banning, based on the threat you made, Autumn.
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 11:01 pm
I just can’t imagine how gay and trans people are going to work together to pass hate crime legislation or a fully inclusive ENDA when we haven’t learned how to walk the earth as brothers and sisters. I think that dropping trans people from civil rights bills is going to seem a bit more palatable now.
Cis LGB and trans people can and do work together, Autumn. Please stop trying to generalize this out to everyone in both communities because you and Pam messed up.
(PS: Some of us — not me — are neither brothers nor sisters. This is why “siblings” works better.)
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 11:03 pm
re: pam’s statement of ‘weaponizing’
The only way I can make sense out of determining how ‘cis’ was being weaponized is if you mean that by pointing out a privileged status it is a weapon against the kyriarchy. I prefer to think of such things as tools, but as has been said ‘every tool is a weapon if you hold it right,’ but if it is a weapon in that sense, it is a righteous weapon, no?
maevele
1 Jul 09 at 11:04 pm
@Rebecca: We have. Brand new. Come on over: http://www.thespectrumcafe.com.
@ATG: I will pass what you said on to Kim. She’ll beam. Not too shabby for a cis gal, huh?
@Autumn: Ok. Stop it, please. This is not the end of the world. Nor is it you talking, its your depression. I know you don’t think of me as a friend anymore, but Autumn, this doesn’t stop the GLBT from working together.
Indeed, you had a chance to help it work *better*, but instead you made decisions and took actions that exacerbated the problem.
Not us. Not me. You. By yourself. And you lashed out at others (Louise!?!?! Really?).
You called what I said shitting on your doorstep. Well, girl, I could show you what it feels like to have me shit on a doorstep. Could. But then I’d get banned here, and its pretty safe space.
For two years I have given the *best* of myself — which granted, is not always pretty, is not always happy — to the blend. THat meant disagreeing with you on occasion – a lot of occasion. It also meant sticking up for you.
That darkness? Its from you pulling the wool blanket over your own eyes, like Hedwig did. Its from you looking into the dark room instead of the sunny outdoors.
You come over here, to Phoenix, to my home, for a weekend. On your time. We’ll talk. You’ll find that I laugh a hundred times a day and I get the most pleasure from just making a meal for friends.
You really only have one way out, Autumn. And that’s to basically admit you screwed up. You don’t have to unban me, because this isn’t about me, this is all about you.
All of it. Its about your sense of entitlement, your sense of place, your sense of where you wanted to lead people instead of letting people lead you.
You are not MLK and I am not Malcom X. We are Toni and Autumn. And we both have to accept responsibility for our own actions.
Like my accepting that I just read you. Thank heavens I didn’t do it in ghetto mode…
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 11:05 pm
*mutters at the violin player*
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 11:12 pm
Since when have the privileged needed an excuse to not find the concerns of the unprivileged palatable?
All this posturing about how “cis” is meanie meanie bogeyman language isn’t leading to justifying a decision to leave trans* folks out in the cold — it’s a display of the fact that they already made that decision.
Dw3t-Hthr
1 Jul 09 at 11:13 pm
aww, come off it, autumn. i really don’t care about your fee-fees at this point. you crossed the picket line; you sold out to the cis management.
this:
just can’t imagine how gay and trans people are going to work together to pass hate crime legislation or a fully inclusive ENDA when we haven’t learned how to walk the earth as brothers and sisters. I think that dropping trans people from civil rights bills is going to seem a bit more palatable now.
yeah, great, it’s our fault because we dare to be angry about the trans blood running in the streets. if cis people want to walk as our brothers and sisters, it is fucking ON THEM to check their privilege. WE ARE NOT EQUALS IN THIS DEBATE. this is not an argument between people who like Nivea vs. people who like Aveeno. this is a group that has tremendous power over another group, and here you are demanding that trans* people cave in and play nice?
honestly, Autumn, are you making a threat to derail gender-inclusive ENDA if we don’t kowtow to the cis masters?
Autumn, maybe you should look up the word “kapo”.
and please, don’t bother advocating for me, your kind of advocacy i do not need.
GallingGalla
1 Jul 09 at 11:13 pm
i’ll settle for this.
1.) An admittance that you’ve turned a bigoted blind eye to me after deciding i am a ‘classic transsexual’.
2.) An admittance that you let one of your cis gay followers run roughshod on me (telling me ‘fuck you’) and others because we had opinions different from you.
3.) An admittance that you have banned and ignored the emails of many people simply for having an opinion that ran contrary to yours, and you did it under the lie that they ‘thead-jacked’ or some other convenient excuse.
i’m not holding my breath, though.
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 11:14 pm
Well, that was equal parts “I’m sorry you were offended,” “Poor me, I’m being attacked!” and a tone argument. Oh, with sprinkles of “Why can’t we get along?”
Dissent you created but don’t agree with isn’t “hate.”
…
I’m done with the PHB debacle. Let’s spend our energies on things that are positive for trans women, like the Trans Female Health Experience Media Project. Communities that stand in solidarity make positive change.
gudbuytjane
1 Jul 09 at 11:14 pm
Aye!
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 11:15 pm
Pam ran off when she got her azz read, I expect even less from Autumn..who has a sweet deal as a house trans person over at the Blend.
And sellin us out for a nice comfy petty tyrantcy is a sweet deal for you, AS.
I have no illusions about your actions, and few here do.
You fucked up, and hurt trans people all over. “Knock it the fuck off”, as you are so fond of saying, and own your shit, and do the right thing.
If not, GTFO trans lives, and go find a rock to live under.
Its time we kept it real, and right now, you aint.
voz
1 Jul 09 at 11:18 pm
okay, i’m still not going to register over at PHB over this, but what the hell.
Kevinchi, you are saying you don’t want o be lumped in with transphobic cis people by being called cis, and then GIVING EXAMPLES OF HOW YOU SEE YOURSELF AS TRANSPHOBIC??
Now, I’m not myslelf this week, so maybe i have missed something where that wouldn’t break my damn brain, but wut? srs?
Also, personally, I am grateful for the term ‘cis’ because it enables me to say “ack i don’t even know, i’m somewhere between trans and cis at this point.”
maevele
1 Jul 09 at 11:18 pm
And please, enough with the ‘brothers and sisters’ crap. i’ve never even met anyone online face to face, let alone undergone a blood ritual with you.
i don’t even consider most of my family as family.
Insinuating unwarranted emotional ties is just pandering at best and insulting at worst.
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 11:18 pm
as noted above “brothers and sisters” others those who do not identify on the binary. i apologize.
GallingGalla
1 Jul 09 at 11:20 pm
i sympathize tjane, but dropping it feels too much like letting them off the hook.
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 11:21 pm
WTF is a “classic transsexual’? I keep having visions of Coke Classic, and New Coke in my mind…
voz
1 Jul 09 at 11:25 pm
i sympathize tjane, but dropping it feels too much like letting them off the hook.
Think of it as doing an end run around them, rather than a front sided tackle.
or something like, anyway. leave em eatin dust, while we get ours.
voz
1 Jul 09 at 11:27 pm
cosigning Anon T-Girl wrt “we are family.” A lot of families are frigging dysfunctional. Appealing to “family,” especially in the sense of “let’s all be more polite to each other,” kind of not really a selling point for a lot of folks. Just saying.
and, Autumn and Pam, speaking as a cis woman (yes! I’m -totally fine- using it, really! a number of us -aren’t- made of glass), y’know…um, personally I thought fighting for civil rights happened because they were the right thing to do, not because people asked really really nicely. I mean to say: don’t do me any favors here, really. And, yeah, I’m taking PHB off the reading list too, I’m afraid. Shame; I did appreciate the news articles, but yeah, no, it’s gotten to the point of my eyes are crossing from the fail at this point.
belledame222
1 Jul 09 at 11:29 pm
The usual demographic of so-called classic transsexuals are post-operative women who transitioned a while ago (60′s, 70′s, 80′s…well, just think ‘before the internet’).
Essentially, they’re pissed at the relatively recent creation of the modern transgender movement, and the quasi-removal of the penis = man gender standard.
Moreover, they are angry that rights they had before quietly transitioning and fading into the public are now being threatened via back-lash legislation against out-loud-proud modern gender radicals.
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 11:33 pm
Classic transsexual: see “enough Nonsense” and try to avoid being around anything that could be used as a weapon.
THink Separatist het transwomen who think if you can’t pass and you don’t have surgery, you are colonizing and not a “classic Transsexual”.
HBS without the abbreviation.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 11:34 pm
I like ATG’s example more — and would add sexist trans binary enforcment agents.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 11:35 pm
btw — I use girl not as an aspect of age, since I use boys and girls. Apologies in advance or after the fact for anyone I’ve offended.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 11:37 pm
@Dyss @ATG Thank you…I get it. I’ll go bleach my brain now.
voz
1 Jul 09 at 11:39 pm
Autumn, I’m genuinely sorry you feel sick. So here’s some help toward a cure.
You were wrong to agree with Lane about the evils of “cis”. You need to acknowledge that, and apologize for going on a crusade against it. You and Pam need to unban the people you’ve banned over, whether or not those people now wish to ever return, because it was not just or appropriate to penalize them for Lane’s transphobia. And you need to explain to the PHB readership that the victims of racism and homophobia can and do still have cis privilege if they’re cis, and that part of a general move toward a better world is them accepting that and dealing with it. (Just as, for instance, I can be ever so disabled and trans and yet still very white and very much a beneficiary of white privilege, no matter how uncomfortable I am with that reality.)
You can start this at any time, and you will feel a lot better about yourself and the community when you do, and have good reasons for feeling better.
It was foolish to let yourself be swayed by an example of gay transphobia and destructive to persist in defending the initial folly, but you can – like all of us – begin to do better at any time. It’s too late to salvage a Wednesday in which you get to feel good about this stuff, but you could choose to have a Thursday that includes it.
Ceri B.
1 Jul 09 at 11:40 pm
Many vocal classic transsexuals online have an ugly bent to them that veers into bigotry and racism.
Many others have very valid points that get ignored, because people like Sandeen drive them out and try to squash them wherever they are.
Take what you’ve seen Sandeen do in the last few days. Now have *everybody* *everywhere* treat you that way *all the time*. It’d twist you up with rage, too. And the rage at watching themselves be co-opted and gagged has sent some of them over the edge.
i’ve become angry on their behalf, even though i’m an independent agent. i refuse to be co-opted by either classic transsexuals or progressive transgenders.
i don’t want to take shit for something a whole team is responsible for, and i want to be able to call out bullshit wherever and whoever it is.
Anonymous-T-Girl
1 Jul 09 at 11:43 pm
So if classic transsexuals are Coke Classic and progressive transgenders are New Coke, who are Diet Coke and Cherry Coke and Vanilla Coke now?
Kynn
1 Jul 09 at 11:57 pm
You cannot know the good without knowing the bad, and you cannot learn to be tolerant and inclusive if you do not include both the good and the bad.
Around these parts, there was once a habit of “kicking them out of the community” for those who transgressed some unwritten rule of the community.
Then I came along. Kicking me out is never easy, and I don’t kick *anyone* out. And the more I disagree, the more valuable they can be.
balance.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 11:58 pm
Oh, I’m generic. Store brand. With ginseng and taurine.
dyssonance
1 Jul 09 at 11:59 pm
Oh, one further suggestion:
“Weaponized” is a seriously awful usage. Please drop it. It obviously, demonstrably doesn’t communicate reliably. Try some other way of expressing whatever your concern is.
(For many of us, one of the first things it brings to mind is right-wing lies about the now-generally-suppressed anthrax terror attacks of 2001. It comes with other unsavory associations as well.)
Ceri B.
2 Jul 09 at 12:05 am
It’s not possible for transsexual people to coopt from transsexual people.
Kynn, I’m vanilla coke. Because vanilla coke is tasty.
Lisa Harney
2 Jul 09 at 12:05 am
Can I be the tasty Jones Soda Cola? Or even some loose leaf tea blend like Plum Rooibos?
Because Coke is nasty & hurts my tummy. =^_^=
Drakyn
2 Jul 09 at 12:10 am
To Ceri @11:40
I agree that the people who got banned over this should be unbanned, but what about all the other people who essentially got banned for disagreeing with Autumn? I don’t just mean me or my wife, I mean all the other people who have gotten banned over the past year or so.
I can think of at least a half a dozen people who did NOT violate the TOS any more blatantly than cis posters who said far worse, but did NOT get banned.
Personally, getting unbanned would mean exactly ZERO to me, unless Autumn edited out her BS statement about me from her “update” to her original post, and PUBLICLY apologized to ALL of us, who she has unjustly banned for comments in other threads. And that INCLUDES Louise and Cindi K, to whom she owes apologies for a different situation.
Fat chance of that happening.
Susan Ferman
2 Jul 09 at 12:35 am
breaktime, all…
… stretch, relax, stare at something else…
(me. You do what you want, lol)
dyssonance
2 Jul 09 at 12:55 am
Susan: Oh, yeah, I agree. I’m just saying that the right thing is both obvious and simple, just probably unappealing to the offenders in this case. As opposed to cases where it’s genuinely hard to figure out a right course of action.
Dyssonance, good idea. Time for some tunes. :)
Ceri B.
2 Jul 09 at 1:03 am
[...] these arguments going on about the use of the word cis? Here’s Pam’s House Blend and Questioning Transphobia on the issue. [...]
Cis Hits the Fan - en|Gender
2 Jul 09 at 1:13 am
ENOUGH ALREADY!
I’ve seen people who I’m honoured to call friends attack each other. That saddens me.
I happen to think that one of my best friends, Autumn, screwed up. Just as I have myself, in the past, and will no doubt do in the future. It happens when you blog. It happens just for being human. And Ghu knows, a mod’s life is not a happy one, not when there’s comments coming in on a dozen threads, sometimes many every minute.
I’ve also seen others who should show a modicum of understanding and human kindness start immediately with the pitchforks and torches, just as I do when I go after Focus on the Family and similar miscreants. That I consider a screw-up too. That also happens just by being human.
If I’ve ever helped any of you, if I have any markers to call in from any of you, for help mutually given and mutually received in fighting the good fight against the ignorance and bigotry in all corners of the Earth, then I ask you just for me personally to cool it.
As a personal favour. And after cooling off, to take whatever action you think is needed to restore the situation. I have my own ideas, but I’ll leave those actions to you.
Please. As a personal favour to a friend. Not because it’s right that you be treated so unfairly, not because criticism is justified (it may not be) but just for me.
Zoe Brain
2 Jul 09 at 3:45 am
Fine by me. For now — much depends on what she writes.
(and that’s a terrible way to start the reply, zoe! lol)
dyssonance
2 Jul 09 at 3:47 am
The fact that Autumn is your friend shouldn’t be a reason to give someone an easy pass from a mistake — their response to the mistake should govern any decisions anyone makes.
Or have I misunderstood what you are asking?
z
2 Jul 09 at 4:00 am
well, there’s
NO dudgeon like
HIGH dudgeon like
NO dudgeon i knoooowww…
one of the things we continually complain about in others is their apparent inability to manage nuance – to sustain two simultaneous thoughts which, if viewed at nothing but the most surface level, appear contradictory, but the mutual truth of which actually says something a bit more complex and important.
allow me to distill such a couplet here:
autumn fucked up.
autumn is not the enemy.
personally, i don’t forgive unacknowledged fuckups, particularly those which are compounded by peevish cowardice.
i also know how hard it is to make such an acknowledgment. it has been noted that autumn acts from no little ego. well, i hate to have to state the obvious, but that’s what it takes to be an activist. *no* substantive advocate acts from anything less than a whopping great mound of ego… even more so in the trans’verse, where the visceral need for validation, for self-reinforcement, is so intense.
it also requires a thick damned hide, and sometimes the callus one builds up desensitizes one to more than just the external. i have seen autumn withstand hard contact from some pretty monstrous people – some of whom are the very monsters that dyssonance so enjoys sparring with.
not everyone gets off on it, though. autumn clearly doesn’t. as a consequence, she has nearly made a fetish of accommodation, of “bending instead of breaking.”
in this case, that approach has led her to error. that error needs to addressed. but really… own up to the fact that she’s getting a bit of extra heat because she’s an easy target. she’s closer. she can be hurt. she *cares*.
i said earlier that autumn was had. well, we all seem to have fallen into the trap that was laid. one man’s fraudulent sense of offense has turned us inside out. they won, and autumn was the foil… but only that. we were the fuel.
cigfran
2 Jul 09 at 5:08 am
gee, thank you zoe and cigfran for your handy tone arguments.
no, i am sorry, but Pam and Autumn are actively silencing trans people while permitting cis people to spill their hate on us. this is way beyong a “mistake” or being only “the foil”. they are both being defensive and not showing any willingness to listen to trans folk.
Zoe, i especially do not appreciate you blasting in here on a blog that you do not own, and yelling at us like we’re children.
hint: tone arguments will never shut me up.
GallingGalla
2 Jul 09 at 5:20 am
“I think that dropping trans people from civil rights bills is going to seem a bit more palatable now.”
This is horribly naive. They already tried to cut us out of ENDA last year, when we were playing good LGBT member. As a result, almost all LGBT organizations protested, HRC, Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi ended up with egg on their face for proposing it, and the damn bill STILL DIDN’T PASS. Now there’s a trans-inclusive ENDA again, and it has the same exact chance of passing the house that the exclusive version does… and it actually provides more legal protections for ALL LGBT folk than an exclusive version.
Everything else aside, the “we can’t rock the boat or else the mainstream will abandon us” meme hasn’t ever really worked for any minority group. It is through rocking the boat that the world is made to be a more considerate place.
Lina
2 Jul 09 at 5:23 am
GG:
it was not a “tone argument” nor would i consider trying to “shut you up.”
that kind of superficial reading is sort of what i was talking about.
rage on. it’s good for the cholesterol.
(side note: i knew that zoe’s comment would fail. credibility has always been a tissue-thin currency in this community, and personal appeals are just showing your underbelly.)
cigfran
2 Jul 09 at 5:57 am
I could make a strong case for tossing Autumn aside and starting over with some less toxic people.
I really could. There need to be consequences for mistreating us, no matter what meatsack you are wearing when you do it.
The fact that she is even speaking like this pretty much toasts her in my book..You don’t even JOKE abt tossing trans folk aside these days, if you want trust.
As far as tone argument’s Our anger is righteous and precious..there are a lotta good places out there where we can use it well.
Pam and Autumn are not any such place. Forget em, and move on. Let them die of irrelevancy, and build something By us for us, instead of clinging madly to the tit of cissupremacist gay special rights.
It’s time to pull up the big kid shorts and stand on our own.
voz
2 Jul 09 at 6:03 am
gee, thank you zoe and cigfran for your handy tone arguments.
No, thank you, GG for telling it like it is.
voz
2 Jul 09 at 6:04 am
I find it hard to believe that someone who can find enough time to ban a bunch of people can’t use that time to effectively moderate it.
jayinchicago
2 Jul 09 at 6:17 am
Okay, I definitely won’t be able to watch this discussion for the next several hours, so I’m temporarily locking it. Not that I’ve been able to watch it for the past few hours. I will catch up on comments when I get back.
Autumn’s post will be up on PHB in a couple of hours.
Also, dug one of Kynn’s comments out of the gorram spam filter. Stupid spam filter.
Lisa Harney
2 Jul 09 at 6:24 am
Autumn’s post.
Pam has a experiment in mind.
I haven’t read either of these yet.
And no, I didn’t freeze comments to protect anyone. I froze comments because I was going to bed and it looked like I’d wake up to a fight I’d have to untangle – the same reason I froze comments the first night I posted this.
Lisa Harney
2 Jul 09 at 4:25 pm
hee hee.
Thanks for opening it back up, Lisa.
dyssonance
2 Jul 09 at 4:31 pm
Okay, I am sorry I accused you of that.
It’s pretty difficult for me to stay as “calm” and “civil” as various people would like, when Autumn Sandeen publishes a top-page post on PHB that lies about what happened in order to make me the whipping girl.
I’m sorry I took out some of that frustration on you, though, Lisa.
Kynn
2 Jul 09 at 4:33 pm
Pam’s “experiment” is a deliberate attempt to change the topic away from the unfair and cissexist language policing done by the “Baristas” and instead scapegoat trans people for victimizing the mods — while at the same time declaring open season on trans people at PHB.
Let’s spin a fable.
We’re in the deep south, sometime last century.
The black people are getting beat up and harassed constantly. The white cops — and even a few black cop or two wants to keep his position — turn a blind eye to this.
Then a white person speaks up to say that OMG, that black guy over there said something terrible about white people. And the cops come in and drag off the black guy.
A black cop (played by Autumn Sandeen in this analogy) even gets up and lectures all the black people to stop getting in fights with white people, because if they do, he’ll send their black asses to jail. The white sheriff (Pam) stands by this and says that black people just have to be more “civil.”
And they’re not going to change anything about how they enforce the laws, that’s for sure — not while the black people are being so uppity.
The black people in the town get upset with this. They demand change; they demand respect. They demand that there no longer be an unequal system of punishment, whereby white people are allowed to harm black people with impunity, but if a black person steps out of line — maybe looks at a white lady a little too long? — the law will come down hard on him.
In response, a story is fabricated about how a certain black person did this terrible thing — that happened AFTER the whole mess started — and then finally the white sheriff gets all fed up with listening to those complaining black people and says,
“ENOUGH! Fine! We won’t enforce the law against ANYONE for the next week! You all do whatever you want, and this is on the heads of YOU BLACK PEOPLE for complaining!”
So, how does this fairy tale end?
Well, um.
Sorry to tell a story with an unhappy ending but …
This fable would end with the black people being robbed, killed, raped, victimized, lynched, driven out, and otherwise abused by the white people.
Because the white sheriff said that’s okay.
Lack of fair and honest enforcement of rules hurts the most vulnerable in a population, not those who possess and exercise privilege.
Kynn
2 Jul 09 at 4:46 pm
Don’t worry about it, Kynn, I know everyone’s frustrated.
I hadn’t read her post – it wasn’t up when I closed comments.
Anyway, yeah, I see. I don’t agree that it’s weaponized in those comments (and I think calling it weaponized is a hugely emotive term in this context). Either that or people of color have also weaponized “white” and gay men and lesbian women have weaponized “straight,” “heterosexual,” and “heteronormative” (the last against trans people rather frequently).
I mean, your comment here:
You’re clearly calling out that John Aravosis doesn’t want trans people in the (to him) Gl(b)…(t) movement. That is a movement free of trans people, whether or not we’re heterosexual (and of course, many of us are not). Aravosis also hinted that he didn’t really want lesbians and bisexuals in his movement, so yeah, calling it his cisgender gay rights movement is accurate per Aravosis’ own words. What can you call it if you can’t call out how he doesn’t want trans people in the movement? How is this weaponizing?
Is it bad to refer to cisgender people who are being transphobic as cisgender at the same time? Is it bad to refer to white people who are being racist as white at the same time?
I see Autumn’s frustration, but I think that focusing on the notion of weaponizing cis in this way isn’t helping. Cisgender and cissexual shouldn’t even be the focus here.
Lisa Harney
2 Jul 09 at 4:54 pm
Oh, and then there’s the time stamps.
Lisa Harney
2 Jul 09 at 5:05 pm
It is accurately naming violent situation as violent. But the source violence is supposed to stay invisible in this system.
The real source of the violence is what Aravosis did to begin with. That violence has cultural “plausible deniability” — it’s culturally supposed to be invisible. So naming the violence appears, culturally, as introducing violence into a non-violent context. Which is not true, of course, it’s just that certain kinds of violence are marked as culturally normal, and are supposed to stay invisible.
The introduction of a response to violence into a violent situation that is supposed to be hidden — that’s what makes the “weaponizing” interpretation seem reasonable/plausible to the extent that it does.
This is a short and more cryptic version of my longer comment over there
Michelle
2 Jul 09 at 5:06 pm
The timestamps are why I stated what I did in my response.
She was just looking for an example, any example. She couldn’t stick to *me*, because I don’t use it that way.
She did, utterly unfairly, single out Kynn, and kynn wasn’t involved until *after* I was trapdoored.
So sorry — but that part is, entirely, bs, on her part, and part of why in reading it I knew she’d screwed herself.
I *like* autumn. I consider her a friend, even though she doesn’t me any longer. Its why I was careful to explain what I was going on in my blog post about it.
There’s enough rewriting of history to marginalize us going on already — I won’t tolerate it from one of our own.
If that means I have to have people like Zoe mad at me, well, then I’ve got people mad at me.
Dyssonance
2 Jul 09 at 5:11 pm
The whole kerfuffle logically rests on this so-called “weaponization” of the cis word.
I know this was mentioned elsewhere, but I need to vent — hope you don’t mind.
Kynn’s quote, used as evidence, was that talking about cis gay rights is “weaponization” of the words. I don’t believe that a cis person fighting for cis gay rights has trans gay people in mind — in fact they’re wondering what trans LGB people are doing hanging around them.
Ignoring this fact ignores the struggle for trans and trans LGB rights.
Not very nukular, is it?
z
2 Jul 09 at 5:14 pm
Nope, and Kynn’s comment was posted a day or so after Autumn posted her initial warning.
And Kynn was responding to someone suggesting that Aravosis’ questions in the Salon article were just innocent “Why are trans people in the movement?” questions. I was following AmericaBlog and the Salon articles (John’s article, the response, etc) and they were in no way innocent, and it’d take some pretty hefty recontextualizing to paint them as innocent.
I also recall Aravosis going on a rampage because he found out that some trans people who transition stay in their marriages, thus to him, trans people already have the right to same-sex marriage, and thus had no need to be in the cis LGB rights movement.
Plus there was all the grotesque ways he talked about trans women in his article.
Lisa Harney
2 Jul 09 at 5:17 pm
Is anybody else wondering what weaponizing even means in this context?
piny
2 Jul 09 at 5:25 pm
Is anybody else wondering what weaponizing even means in this context?
“Weaponizing” means “mind your fucking betters and don’t be uppity.”
That’s how Pam and Pam’s House Trans Woman are using it.
Kynn
2 Jul 09 at 5:33 pm
FWIW (or isn’t) I myself have been really drawn to looking at that in its particulars, looking at what it means, because its use resonates with some other dynamics I have experienced.
I think that word has a very specific function as used in this situation. I posted a comment on that here and over there but the one posted here had a link in it so maybe it got filtered.
Michelle
2 Jul 09 at 5:40 pm
Part of what offends me about Pam and Autumn is how easily they lie about everything even though it’s all there in the public record.
Like Pam saying that nobody was threatened and that Autumn has no problem with “cis.”
Or like this, which Autumn wrote:
In the small picture, to the now former blender who made the Nazi comparison — Wow. Really? Wow.
Really? Ex-blender? Cuz here’s Fritz replying right there in that very thread.
She also made the claim here on QT last night that she’d banned him for his Nazi comment. And yet he’s still posting. How’s that work again, Autumn?
Got another lie to spin? Want to make up some completely false account of what happened in order to pin the blame on me personally, maybe?
You dishonest liar.
Kynn
2 Jul 09 at 5:41 pm
Yeah, I found a post by Kynn and Michelle in the spamttrap. Why is it doing precisely what I set it up to not do?
I’m getting uncomfortable with the “house trans” comments, although I certainly think discussion of collusion with privilege is worthwhile.
Lisa Harney
2 Jul 09 at 5:43 pm
Okay, I’ll drop the “house trans” thing, but I think it’s valuable to talk about how quick Autumn Sandeen is to sell out other trans people — and silence them! — in order to maintain her favored status among the LGB readers of Pam’s House Blend.
In any oppressed group you’ll find those people.
Kynn
2 Jul 09 at 5:46 pm
Lisa, as someone who claims ethnic rights to many ethnic communities by virtue of blood, I can say that the Malcolm X statement (from which the house and field commentary is derived) is somewhat applicable, since it is a case of one of our own doing it to us, without racial overtones.
I can understand your reticence, as well — one of the downsides to being multiracial is that you never really get to belong. You are forever outside. Colorism is rampant still.
I will tone it down myself, however.
I came, though, to post a link to what I find inexcusable: http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/11844/ah-so-apparently-its-all-my-fault
Therein, one sees what I believe is the real intent of Autumn, putting evidence to the earlier comment.
This was not an apology, not truly an admitting of having done wrong.
And she’s lost the chance to retain any respect I had for her.
Especially since she just came back from a radio show where someone did the apology right.
She can teach, but she can’t learn.
Dyssonance
2 Jul 09 at 5:49 pm
crap — another one in the trap, Lisa
Dyssonance
2 Jul 09 at 5:49 pm
I went i read and read and i am not impressed – sadly i see no easy resolution. Granted PHB is a free for all Zoo, in the my latest and last analysis fwiw. It seems avoidant to just have this experiment – Regrettfully hoped that given the obvious shit storm that Autumn’s post would have been more declaritive and less about her cat. The Blend is extremely taxing place to linger if one is Trans. And this weaponizing of words is just as Kynn says above at 5:33. Bottom line for me i don’t give a flying fig if no TG people like the prefix “cis” or not. I will continue to use it. I found the 20 something’s GWM post of linguistics beyond patronizing. I think what’s going on over there is beyond patronizing. Some simple ground rules would work -
on a any big blog – zero tolorance of racist, transphobic , homophobic , misogynist comments. They will be subject to immediate deletion (how hard is that really ? and i am sure some person of sound judgement who is home disabled could be found to monitor that site voluntarily out of love they have for it. I know of several forums where thats exactly how things are run for better or worse.
Thats my thoughts for now – i remain very interesting in this thread. And want to thank you regulars for your insights , opinions and Lisa especially for running a fine blog and handling a very loaded subject with so much finesse and good old common sense.
So one more question is this so called experiment being done on the Blend mean that the free for all continues unabated ? I am not sure exactly how that helps. Am i or others expected to go and just blast out our extreme dissapointment ? get it out of our systems..If that is the case count me out ! Not worth it.
I could change my mind by i see it all degenerating into a Blend lovers, Autumn defenders vs. this place is not safe etc. So far nobody has owned much of anything – though a few comments displayed some education took place. What i also resent is that Avaroris is still living rent free in our minds as if he hasn’t done enough F’ing harm.
genderqueer riff raff
proudprogressive
2 Jul 09 at 5:53 pm
Autumn did ban Fritz.
Last night. I looked it up.
This morning he and I were both restored.
But after what I saw, I *know* I’m not welcome there.
dyssonance
2 Jul 09 at 5:53 pm
Neat, Pam says I’ve earned a banning.
Kynn
2 Jul 09 at 5:54 pm
That’s what I am doing at TSC, riff raff.
And now I will make it almost a misson, lol
dyssonance
2 Jul 09 at 5:56 pm
Yeah, found Kynn and Dyss in the spamtrap again.
I fiddled with the spam settings. Hopefully it’ll stop spamtrapping posts with only a few links. I have it set to 10 links now.
Lisa Harney
2 Jul 09 at 6:07 pm
The silence is deafening, lol.
I’m off to see my shrink at her monthly support group. Its remaining clear that I am not welcome at PHB still, so I won’t push the envelope today.
too much effort better spent elsewhere (like writing stories about gals attacked and a cool new group to help srs happen)
dyssonance
2 Jul 09 at 6:23 pm
Fair enough, Dyss, on the Malcolm X point.
Lisa Harney
2 Jul 09 at 6:30 pm
My google reader is just getting emptier and emptier… I guess thanks to Pam and Autumn for helping me to cut down on my blog habit by making the Blend as safe a place for trans people as NBC Philadelphia. (which is, incidentally, not a safe place for trans people: http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Jogger-Finds-Dead-Man-in-Park.html)
Claire
2 Jul 09 at 6:32 pm
@Kynn at 5:54–Hey, cool! You can keep me company, out here beyond The Fiefdom. ;)
Susan Ferman
2 Jul 09 at 6:52 pm
What’s annoying is that with the Bilerico incidents before, it could just be easily dismissed as some cis GWM that just isn’t getting it (omg weaponizing…)
But this case involves one of our own… and in that case makes it more disappointing.
z
2 Jul 09 at 6:54 pm
@Dyss–On a lighter note, I was just reading your words “The silence is deafening” when Weatherbug promptly startled the shit out of me, with the sound of crickets.
Susan Ferman
2 Jul 09 at 6:55 pm
So I had a conversation with my niece about racism today, and she said “Stop saying ‘white people!’ It makes it sound like being white is a bad thing.” We got past that speedbump, yay.
… yeah.
Lisa Harney
2 Jul 09 at 6:55 pm
The entire thing is really disappointing. Every gay person I know in real life, upon learning about “cis-” says “Cool.”
When I tell them about gender identity being dropped from the 2007 ENDA, they say “Wait, what? Seriously?” (Even two HRC volunteers I recently spoke to on the street.)
When I tell them I can’t use the damn bathroom at work, they agree that it’s horrible and express confusion at the thought that anyone could care.
When I tell them that my license has an M on it, they acknowledge that the only reason the DMV could have such a policy, in spite of the genuine confusion it must promote in situations where ID is supposed to grant certainty, is that someone, somewhere (lots of people, everywhere) was REALLY interested in making sure there was another gate to keep…
When I never meet one in meatspace, how is it that these cis-supremacist queers get so much love in the blogosphere? Even in old media, I recently listened to a gay rights activist interviewee explain that he didn’t see the point of all this L and the B and the trans-gender(he said it like it was dogshit in his mouth), and that “gay covers it.”
It’s exhausting. If I weren’t also a lesbian, I’d probably have said “fuck you and farewell” to the LGB movement long ago. Even being a lesbian, I’m now wondering why I shouldn’t.
Claire
2 Jul 09 at 7:09 pm
autumn’s reponse today was my last straw. I reallly expected(hoped for) something other than defending this whole ‘cis is a weapon’ bullshit.
I JUST DON’T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY DON’T FUCKING GET! WTF?
I’m mostly cis, but I do not feel safe in a space where my friends are not safe. I’ve never been a ‘blender’, but i’ve been reading pam’s for a while, and recommending it as a pretty good inclusive blog in the past. no more. I’m still tempted to register over there just to express my anger at them.
maevele
2 Jul 09 at 7:15 pm
Ah, finally Pam has figured out how to ban someone correctly. Originally she announced ZOMG BANNING U but then I could still post comments.
Why are so many blogs by cis people full of fail when it comes to trans?
(That’s just rhetorical; I know why.)
Kynn
2 Jul 09 at 7:25 pm
It’s cute how you can get banned for posting private information on PHB…when you don’t post any private information on PHB.
It’s EXTRA NICE that Pam puts in a long spiel about how dishonest I am and how I can’t be trusted to not break any AUPs or even be allowed access to any private information anywhere.
Because I publicly posted on my own LJ the fucked up bullshit that her co-mod, acting as a co-mod, emailed to me as a user.
Yeah, PHB is dead. Congrats, Autumn! You killed it for me.
Kynn
2 Jul 09 at 7:28 pm
Read Autumn’s post and this is what I got:
“bad trans evil rotten tran mean trans bad bad very bad trans trans fucked up trans bad trans tans bad trans
some silly naughty gay boys too
back to the horrid trans that do bad trans things to silly naughty gay boys bad trand bad bad trans
I overreached … stuff about a cat
you bad trans ruined everything horrid trans baddies
rioTgirl
2 Jul 09 at 8:03 pm
[...] There’s a massive comment thread right now at Questioning Transphobia, Pam Spaulding showed up, there and pretty much just dug a deeper hole. Links to the original post are there. Autumn Sandeen’s response is here, and is full of gaslighting and tone arguments. And, you know, I could only read a few comments on that, because it was disgusting. It’s the typical liberal just-not-getting-it about privilege, combined with Autumn selling every other trans person out to get cookies from the oppressors. “Uh, hey, some of us were there when Aravosis publicly made the case that we [transgender people] don’t belong in his cisgender gay-rights movement,” is weaponized and only intended to incite anger and to attack, really? Have you paid attention to most of the gay rights movement? It is a cisgender movement, or have you already forgotten the ENDA debacle? [...]
Selling Out to the Oppressors and Tone Arguments – Pam’s House Blend « Memoirs of a Genderqueer Femme Anarchist
2 Jul 09 at 8:05 pm
I am … particularly charmed by Autumn’s comment on … is that Kynn’s post? Crowing about how this is what the world looks like without her benevolent moderation.
I just wow.
Dw3t-Hthr
2 Jul 09 at 8:10 pm
That’s what I am doing at TSC, riff raff.
And now I will make it almost a misson, lol
i just registered and am really looking forward to watching the Spectrum Cafe grow. What you did literally in 48 hrs is remarkable Dyss. Thank you..now back to your originally scheduled – thread and check out the new Cafe folks..very very nice !
proudprogressive
2 Jul 09 at 8:14 pm
This is what Autumn’s “apology” looks like to me: http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x65/gudbuytjane/weaponized.jpg
I wrote about it at my journal: http://gudbuytjane.livejournal.com/10656.html
gudbuytjane
2 Jul 09 at 9:28 pm
finally got pissed enough to register over there.
it won’t do any damn good.
maevele
2 Jul 09 at 10:39 pm
Oh my FG… This is ridiculous. “Cis” is an entirely valid term and any fucker that would ban someone for using the term is ignorant. And I have been arguing with the white cis gay men for too long to accept ignorance as an excuse for too long. I have slowly given up ground… HuffPo… Salon… and no PHB. It is fucking inexcusable. It is NOT too much to demand acknowledgment of our fucking HUMANITY. And if that is “weaponized”, then fuck you. Just fuck you. John Aravsosis speaks for white cis gay men, and many white cis gay men agree with him. If someone accused Jesse Helms of agreeing with Southern White racists, it would not be surprising, so y’know what? John Aravosis? You’re Jesse Helms. And Autumn or Pam? If you think that’s ok? You’re no better than southern racists. We are the lowest of the low. And I’m white, so I know there are people below the ladder from me. Look fucking down, you are not on the lowest step. Fuck y’all.
Mireille
2 Jul 09 at 10:50 pm
I am done with the PHB thing.
Autumn, if you come by here, know that I read ya loud and clear, and when we do meet that one day, I will remember this.
May not hold it against ya, but I’ll remember.
You should’ve just made me the bad girl. I can take it. I’m mean and thoughtless.
Picking someone who said something you really didn’t like in a way you liked even less — regardless of why — just proved the point of so many.
Go on down that road, Martin. I’ll go down mine. In about 5 years we’ll see who was right.
I’m putting my money on me.
dyssonance
3 Jul 09 at 1:59 am
One last point, despite Pam’s assurances that anyone who had been banned would be un-banned, my ‘gudbuytjane’ account at PHB has remained locked out.
I suppose I’m on Pam’s shit list for my uncivil promotion of civil disobedience (http://gudbuytjane.livejournal.com/9562.html).
gudbuytjane
3 Jul 09 at 8:20 am
No no — its a simple clerical error, really.
no, really, it is. Honest.
Or maybe its just the whole LJ thing (it being so passe and all, y’know).
eh.
dyssonance
3 Jul 09 at 8:42 am
I’m thinkig of posting this on PHB.. I dunno.
I think folks are completely missing the actual root of the issue. Autumn made an article about a cis gay man who questioned the very presence of trans people in the “gay movement”. He intentionally denied dissenting opinions in his call for “conversation”. When this same man crows about a (small) victory for trans protections as a (small) win for the GLBT movement – there IS a problem with that. Autumn’s article was a good one.
The issue came when another gay man had an issue with that. He had an issue with a trans woman naming a VERY painful time for trans people (women in particular). When “cis” was used CORRECTLY to identify Ariviois’ status (along with gay and white and man) the SAME Blender and other gay men got ruffled and started to derail.
The problem is that the derailing is not seriously being addressed. The apology goes at great length to point out how and why and to what extent trans women and use of “cis” is the issue. The privileged attitudes that sparked the whole thing are briefly addressed as an afterthought.
Horrible mean nasty trans vs. naughty little gay guys who must be shielded from examining their own place part in this whole mess.
rioTgirl
3 Jul 09 at 9:18 am
Its beyond me why a simple post could not be done with a cut and paste of the wiki of the definition of “cis” and its usage , its a prefix embraced by the oppressed and utilized to deliniate and expose difference and privilege. And the policy stated on PHB that those who dominate the discourse , those with more social power DO NOT get to define or have a choice about what language those who are oppressed chose to use.
what is so hard about that ? the cut and paste wiki would be spoon feeding …and the power would be returned on that website at least to the trans people who chose to use the term in whatever way they see fit. People surely do get riled when when they are called out on privilege. Its not comfortable but the first job is to listen – not advise or suggest well call us this , its nicer, or pat us on the head and say there there now – its not so bad. Or please be nicer , so we can be more comfortable around you. Of course that is the impulse nobody wants to feel uncomfortable , listening is hard work and awkward. But ultimately hopefully it results in change – I thought michele’s long post there on weaponizing was very asute. but its also kind of rediculous and undermining to dialog when the Blend itself seems to buy into the notion , that the default position is GWM , and Autumn herself doesn’t seem to understand the term/prefix “Cis” and its usefulness.
It could all be settled so simply with a note to those with privilege if you don’t like it, don’t interact but the oppressed have the power here to define themselves and use terms they themselves are comfortable with – How hard is that ?
Who benefits when this is not settled this way ?
proudprogressive
3 Jul 09 at 9:20 am
Rio I think you ought to post that , its very succinct and to the point. i guess i will take a forray over there one more time..(i am gonna shield myself mentally however as my constitution for all this is not exactly strong) Who knows i may muster up something to say – privilege unchallenged is collusion with privilege. Silence still equals death in my book.
proudprogressive
3 Jul 09 at 9:59 am
@dyssonance
I am sure it’s merely an oversight. I mean, when I click the ‘I forgot my password’ link, it sends the associated email a password, it just doesn’t work when I link to it.
What is strange is that I can’t create a new account. Strange strange strange. Am I the only one?
Then again, maybe it is just blatant LJ-phobic, blogcentric bias… ;)
@rioTgirl
Please do! We can’t let them silence the real issue with this static about civility, their “fuck all y’all and moderate yourself” ‘experiment,’ and weaponizing.
Seriously, anyone with an investment in social justice should be worried by Autumn’s manipulative and very fundamentalist-right-style-tactic use of ‘weaponizing’ and call it out. Now is the time for cis allies who are bloggers and activists, the truly progressive ones, to raise alarm about this shit.
gudbuytjane
3 Jul 09 at 11:08 am
I posted it because the conversation at Pam’s continues to address the buthurt (LOVE using that) gay guys and fucking validity of “cis”. WE (trans/ and allies) are being dragged into that mess and being used to shield and deflect from the actual issue.
rioTgirl
3 Jul 09 at 11:42 am
@Claire:
And most het people I know in real life as well (not every one I meet, but most that I actually get to know), as well as many net.acquaintances … as shown by the responses to my blog entry yesterday.
@Mireille:
I’m used to seeing ‘ignorant’ used to mean “unaware of various facts”, and as a dialectical synonym for “disrespectul” and/or “stupid”. Here I think we’re really seeing feigned ignorance (or very carefully maintained willful ignorance) as a tactic — especially in light of what Claire and I have observed in real life.
@Mireille:
Isn’t that the gist of every rights movement, in a nutshell? A political statement that really DOES fit on a bumper sticker, yet oppressed group after oppressed group has to teach the privileged classes the same lesson over and over again.
@proudprogressive (a little over two days ago):
Did my response to Fritz’s Nazi comparison make things better or worse? At that point I was trying very hard to show the validity of — and need for — the term ‘cis’, without actually typing those three letters in that order because of the “we will ban anybody defending ‘cis’” warning.
d'glenn
3 Jul 09 at 11:53 am
Someone want to ask on the PHB moderation/avoidance thread why ‘gudbuytjane’ is still banned? Really, this pretend transparency on the part of Pam and Autumn is so telling.
gudbuytjane
3 Jul 09 at 12:28 pm
NM, i am back in.
gudbuytjane
3 Jul 09 at 1:33 pm
NM, i am back in.
I’m not, but the amount of hate thrown at me there has finally convinced me that for my own mental health, I gotta avoid that place.
I have to look out for me, and remember, as one of my friends on Dreamwidth said, that I am worth protecting. Even if I am the one protecting myself.
Next time I’ll know better; next time I’ll know to stay silent. This pain is not good for me, not on top of an already painful life. I don’t need to add to it by opening my big fat trans mouth.
Kynn
3 Jul 09 at 1:54 pm
So there’s no conversation at PHB on how “Don’t call me cis” was used to derail from valid criticism of the way John Aravosis talks about trans people, it’s just whether cis should be used at all, because of how it hurts cis gay men to be called cis?
Lisa Harney
3 Jul 09 at 3:49 pm
that would require a safe space, Lisa.
But thanks for the idea of having the convo…
dyssonance
3 Jul 09 at 3:54 pm
Folks at the Blend (cis gay men) are too busy right now defending misogynistic slurs to be bothered with whatever silly thing you want to talk about, Lisa.
Kynn
3 Jul 09 at 3:57 pm
I’m not surprised at all, really. I just wanted to be sure.
Kynn,
You know that being a liberal means you’re allowed to hurl any kind of slur you want at conservatives, because conservatives are bad people who deserve to be called those things (and please ignore that these words refer to real people). And if you happen to be misogynist, racist, transphobic, or homophobic in the process, bonus!
I mean, I’m no fan of conservatism in the least, and I do think a lot of conservatives are really terrible people with no respect for people who are not like them, but is it really that hard to criticize Sarah Palin for her actual failures than for whether she’s a “proper” mother” Or criticize Ann Coulter for her failure at reasoned discourse than to pick on her appearance, femininity, and vanity?
Lisa Harney
3 Jul 09 at 4:06 pm
D’glenn — that’s a great damn blog post. Though I’d nitpick that if a poly person isn’t faithful to the commitments they’ve made, what they’re doing is called “cheating” just the same as if a monogamous person isn’t faithful to their commitments. The difference is in the nature of the commitments, not the nature of fidelity. ;) (The fact that ‘faithful’ is culturally taken to mean ‘exclusive’ is a fine fine example of marked and unmarked assumptions….)
Dw3t-Hthr
3 Jul 09 at 4:17 pm
[...] Cis is hostile terminology? Really? « Questioning Transphobia [...]
Femmostroppo Reader - July 4, 2009 — Hoyden About Town
3 Jul 09 at 4:30 pm
PHB just gets worse and worse.
This is a progressive site?
Really?
The same site where a white man minimizes and excuses the Tuskegee syphilis experiments by blaming them on black people?
Really?
Kynn
3 Jul 09 at 4:44 pm
@Dw3t-Hthr: Oh, i definitely agree that poly people are capable of cheating in the way you describe, and that it should be called ‘cheating’ when they do. I was just trying to point out that usually unmarked interpretation of ‘faithful’ as ‘exclusive’, and the corresponding assumption a poly person is still ‘cheating’ even when sie is faithfully honouring hir commitments (an interpretation which I’ve heard defended — very poorly and mostly with “it just is” — when the inherent contradiction has been been pointed out).
Also, thanks for the feedback!
d'glenn
3 Jul 09 at 4:47 pm
The “many members of poly N-ads are faithful” read to me as suggesting closed relationship networks, basically, as it both seemed to suggest circumstances where ethical people might not be ‘faithful’, and also posited a situation in which “N-ad” is actually some kind of meaningful descriptor. As I said, it’s just a nitpick from a particularly twitchy poly person. ;)
It’s a *fantastic* post, overall, very clearly laying out what people at PHB should have been talking about. As opposed to … whatever the hell is going on over there now, I don’t generally read there and all the links people are posting are either justifying cissexism, misogyny, or … what’s the latest bit, racism? Or being smug about how they’re not monitoring, neener neener, now you see what you get when you ask for fair treatment! Or … whatever.
Gah.
Dw3t-Hthr
3 Jul 09 at 4:59 pm
@dyssonance
still doing the homework and the studying.
@Kynn
I apologize for not taking the time to looking over the various posts as I said I would to studying the context.
And…I want to thank you; I suspected that my “turn of phrase” was going to get some vitriolic feedback and it didn’t; in fact, you didn’t attack me at all.
But…do give me time to reexamine, although I don’t understand exactly where Autumn made it personal with you.
I’m just here as a peacemaker, I don’t like seeing all of this strife. If I can be Mr. Cis-mediator, that would be all good.
kevinchi
3 Jul 09 at 5:09 pm
@kynn
Oh. My. God. Wow. I cannot believe anyone is still defending Pam’s Privilege Showroom at this point.
Transmisogynist? Y
Sexist? Y
Racist? Y
Ableist? Y
Fatphobic? Y
Ugh.
gudbuytjane
3 Jul 09 at 5:27 pm
@kevinchi
You seem like you are trying – and that’s good. Sometimes though people need to be angry. Parts of this anger have been festering since 2007 and the first ENDA. Parts of this are also brand new and shocking as it appears “one of our own” slapped us in the face.
Don’t mediate on behalf of all cis* folks mediate on behalf of the one important cis- person. The one who wants to know more and be a better ally.
I won’t speak for all, but I bet some will agree. This past month Pride Month, has left me personally emotionally raw. The past few months have seen some pretty heavy stuff go down and I’m just raw and beat and tired of saying the same things to people who should know better, people who are smart and savvy and generally “get it”. I’m raw from gay men at Prid insisting that it wasn’t Trans and hustlers who started Stonewall – that it was “effeminate gay men” and “some others” who did.
Pam’s is the latest and probably the hardest. I generally liked her site. I generally got angry there less than other places. I just realized that “liking” a place = feeling “less angry” is a pretty crappy way to give a site compliments – but it’s true.
rioTgirl
3 Jul 09 at 5:32 pm
Actually, this anger traces pretty directly back to 2000 and 2001, with ’04 the spark that ignited the fuse (Riki anyone?)
dyssonance
3 Jul 09 at 5:44 pm
kevinchi, you wrote:
But…do give me time to reexamine, although I don’t understand exactly where Autumn made it personal with you.
This link has been given out many times — in fact directly to you at least once: the timestamps prove Autumn lied about me
In short, Autumn says that I started the “cis” argument, in a comment I made on the 29th. However, in reaction to the “cis” argument, Autumn decried the terminology and threatened to ban anyone who supported it — on the 28th.
Please explain to me how exactly it isn’t “personal” if Autumn is going to single me out — with links to my journal and my twitter feed — for something that not only did I not do, but that I simply couldn’t possibly have done?
Short of time travel.
Autumn claims her actions on the 28th were a reaction to my comment on the 29th.
She wants a whipping girl.
She chose me.
You refuse to see it.
Kynn
3 Jul 09 at 5:47 pm
I know what you’re talking about, but what’s the reference to Riki Wilchins?
I also want to point out re: Stonewall that a cis gay man recently published a work in which he basically revises trans people out of Stonewall history, and I believe has a supposed quote from Sylvia Rivera that contradicts many things Sylvia said in articles and interviews over a period of years.
Lisa Harney
3 Jul 09 at 5:48 pm
Kev, I’m right here with you- just being uncharacteristically quiet.
If there were ever a time for me to STFU, listen and learn, imo it’s NOW.
melouise
3 Jul 09 at 5:49 pm
Also, kevinchi? If you want to be a peacemaker and a mediator?
You’re going to need to learn something.
The problem is not here at Questioning Transphobia.
The problem is at Pam’s House Blend.
And it’s not among us trans folks (and our friends) here at QT, it’s among your fellow cis people on PHB.
You keep directing your attention to us, as if doing something here will fix the problem. No. You’re wrong.
The problem is back over THERE. That place that some of us got run off from. Trans people are not the problem; cis people are the problem.
Kynn
3 Jul 09 at 5:50 pm
She’s consistently been implicated in the HRC backroom deal to strip us prior to introduction from ENDA ages ago.
Its not a charge I favor, as the evidence is, these days, rather tenuous, but the impact was that GenderPac was pretty much branded a traitor. Hence its general silence.
Its an area I should generally stay away from, as there is apparently a great deal of interpersonal conflict involved, but its worth noting.
(its the historian side of me, lol)
dyssonance
3 Jul 09 at 5:51 pm
My brain is going to explode: http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showComment.do?commentId=150043
“TO bitch” means “to complain and rant”. “BEING bitchy” means I’m ranting and complaining. There’s nothing anti-woman about THAT.
- bluegrassfool
I can’t even form words right now. Livid.
gudbuytjane
3 Jul 09 at 6:09 pm
Jane, you realize that all the racism, sexism, and transphobia is going to be thrown back in trans peoples’ faces by Pam and Autumn at the end of the “experiment,” right?
“See, this is why we have to moderate! And stop you from using ‘cis’! Because otherwise it gets awful here!”
Despite the fact that, you know, it was only Pam herself who declared her blog a safe haven for privilege.
Kynn
3 Jul 09 at 6:16 pm
@kynn
I know! I think that is what is causing my brain to implode, because it’ll be framed as “See? Those mean trans women came in and fucked it up with their language policing! THEY RUINED IT FOR EVERYONE!”
Up next: Trans women steal Christmas, then pass a law to make puppies, ice cream, and sunshine illegal.
gudbuytjane
3 Jul 09 at 6:27 pm
Note that in the process there will be exceptions carved for “those who are more like us than like them”.
Ok ok, I know.
*Picks up basket* I’m heading back to the field…
dyssonance
3 Jul 09 at 6:29 pm
D’glen yes you have over all made things better , but at first it was i who misunderstood the comment after fritz’s nazi comparison, and your intention with it.
now after reading more of your comments i have a much clearer picture of who you are and what you were and continue to explain – So i accidentally bunched you very wrongly , in w/fritz and am glad for the opportunity to apologize for that and clarify with you that as i read on and on i saw your cogent defense of the term “cis” and was glad for it.
proudprogressive
3 Jul 09 at 6:59 pm
Wow
I’m not even sure what I want to say beyond offering hugs and thanks to Autumn (and Pam) for putting yourself in the middle of this.
Lots of thoughts and ideas have been churning in my mind over the past few days.
It came down to this, though: I don’t have enough time or energy to fight here on the Blend, but I’m okay with using those resources for civil discussion.
by: lane @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 10:20:40 AM EDT
This is the crusc of the problem right here – the comment with the title WOW from lane – the cis mother fucker who just doesn’t have the energy to “fight” on the blend. Meanwhile Batty and others go to great lengthes to educate and re educate with delicacy and kindness. IS IT ANY WONDER why we trans folks feel fucked over by Autumn and by the Blend in general – the above reeks of avaroris..whom i refer to in my mind at least as avaviris ! That is priviledge on display so blantantly…i am livid – that motherfucker needs to be called out so badly instead he scoots off to some place where he doesn’t have to be bothered to learn , or even attempt to recognize his priviledge..and god damnmit yes lets scape goat the Trans woman. Lets be all kinds of misogynist too , because poor lane and the 20 something linguist think we ought for our own good get a better term…WTF are we TG/TS people supposed to do with that ? Indeed by tacit approval and silence by not being a firm blog mistress PAM has let privilege run the show. And we get livid – and believe me Kynn just had the nerve to speak what many of us were feeling and good on you Kynn !
I am just back from that thread but i found that post right after i believe d’glenn pointed out for all to see the crux of the matter and where much of this started.
For those who didn’t read or know of the blood letting of 07 by Avavirus – those threads and ENDA sting to this day..to this minute – we re re written as noted above out of STONEWALL history.
We the Gender transgressors – Stockholm syndrome has over taken the BLEND. How Pam and/or Autumn cannot see this is beyond me. Autumn may not be equipped to write about privilege for one reason or another but PAM sure as hell is – so what gives ? And this no moderation thing is bullshit. If i were a better blogger i would blog on this.
There are two books that any ally needs to read in order to truly help the transgendered of this world imo – and they happen to be bundled together at the moment on Amazon – and a third..its very helpful.
These are Whipping Girl by Julia Serano , Gender Madness in American Psychiatry by Kelly Winters and a third i found very enlightening my own self as i am continuing to learn..we never stop learning right ?
Also the Riddle of Gender by Deborah Rudacille – and of course Kate Bornstein’s classic Gender Outlaws.
To me its gay lib 101 – we’re all gender transgressors. so its just too bad that people like lane and there are a lot of em , just don’t have to the time or the stones to listen to voices of those he and his ilk would through under the bus happily.
And never ever let anyone tell you – that it wasn’t the queens and stone butches that didn’t start the Stonewall riots ffs leslie Feinberg was getting beaten up prior to that – there were riots before STonewall – those who were not gender conforming , have always taken the brunt of it for those who can , could or do pass as cisgendered.
Right now on Bilerico Monica Roberts has a post up on the oversight again of having a transperson of color at the Whitehouse commeration of Stonewall – and nobody really wants to hear it – some are Monica you are so angry. blah blah blah..
Its the habit of those with privilege to blame the messenger. so yeah it will get thrown back in the faces of the trans people.
Just like it always has been – what the assimilators don’t seem to get is that to the haters..there will never be a “good enough gay” and to the haters we are all “teh gay”
god dammit the Blend until something definitive is said BY PAM ABOUT PRIVILEGE is as worthless to me as avavirosis’s cesspool.
proudprogressive
3 Jul 09 at 8:00 pm
That doesn’t say much for their “blenders” if the instant moderation is lax they resort to verbally abusing everyone and anyone (who isn’t a trans people since that’s acceptable even while they moderate).
cere
3 Jul 09 at 8:08 pm
It’s taken me a few days to read through this thread and some of the links from PHB. As a cis person, I just want to say a huge thanks to the many people on this thread who have clearly and repeatedly explained what cis privilege is and how it was used in the threads at PHB.
As an old lady and a long-time activist, I can say that I have been in similar situations. I’ve fucked up royally and I’ve made the huge mistake of choosing righteous indignation as my weapon when I’ve been called out on my errors.
Righteous indignation is fun. It’s soothing and ego boosting. It can be an amazing rush. It’s a huge part of our culture: I had a friend who would clock her bedtime by the righteously indignant speech Dr. Welby used to go into at exactly 35 minutes after the start of the show on every. single. episode.
Pam and Autumn’s recent performance would make Doc Welby proud.
Fortunately, in my life, I’ve had wise friends who’ve had the decency to burst my bubble and show me what an ass I’ve been. Righteous indignation is not just about disappointing my friends but about disappointing myself and not living up to the person I want to be.
Autumn has been given a gift, but she refuses to see it. I hope I do better the next time I screw up. It’s amazing to me how many of you have given her a chance.
Ravenmn
3 Jul 09 at 8:49 pm
At this point, the Blend *Is* such. When I shift to overtly academic posts, I know the beach is now under water…
dyssonance
3 Jul 09 at 9:04 pm
Oh, and Autumn chimed in about the fucked up silencing of a trans woman at… oh… Bilerico: http://www.bilerico.com/2009/07/another_historic_meeting_another_melanin_free_tran.php#comment-188117
I guess she’s doing reputation rehab?
…
@Ravenmn
Thank you for commenting! That is it exactly… if we fuck up, we can apologize, learn, and grow from it… or we’re maintaining the status quo of oppressions and privilege. It’s not often fun or comfortable to have to do it, but I don’t see how we build better communities without that discomfort.
gudbuytjane
3 Jul 09 at 9:12 pm
@gudbuytjane: um, no.
That is passive aggressive behavior seeking enabling.
Now, if that seems like I am psychoanalyzing her, and you wonder why I would do so — especially when I smack other people for doing so — it is because I *am* a psychologist.
Had to be. They wouldn’t let me move forward in my defense without the foundation. Stupid mean cissexist multiracial dissertation panel…
dyssonance
3 Jul 09 at 9:19 pm
I have to say this is what I see happening right now:
Let me put this in terms that might be more familiar and recent and reflective of the way the trans community apparently is supposed to work:
First, you piss us off.
Second, you defend your pissing us off and fail miserably, making further mistakes, and generally digging the whole deeper. (this is where we are right now).
Third, you make an actual, complete apology, and then everyone goes “oh, ok. We’re much happier now, thank you.” and limp along and try to regain sponsors/visitors until the short memory of the cisfolk wipes it off the map.
Pointed case in point: KRXQ.
Perhaps ya’ll heard or read about that back in June?
dyssonance
3 Jul 09 at 9:34 pm
@dyssonance You forgot Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
voz
3 Jul 09 at 9:41 pm
Damn. No wonder I didn’t get that bottle copy writer job….
dyssonance
3 Jul 09 at 9:49 pm
So, hey, can we have a new thread to talk about this on, Lisa? This one is just so damn long, and maybe we need to regroup and concentrate on positive things. :)
Kynn
3 Jul 09 at 11:21 pm
Probably a good idea.
I need to post some new stuff at any rate, give some attention to other stuff that’s going on.
Lisa Harney
3 Jul 09 at 11:32 pm
Yeah, that sounds like a good idea, I don’t know what else can be done there. PHB has gone out of control toxic, and there’s nothing else I can say to Autumn or Pam. They’re no more on “my side” than any other transphobes or
cissycophants. Everywhere else I look these days the same thing seems to be playing out, even to the point of consciously putting our lives in danger. For a laugh.I could definitely use some positive things to talk about.
Speaking of highlighting other stuff, what do you think of this, Call for submissions: “How to Fuck a Trans Woman”? I for one much prefer discussions of my sexuality to be about activities and not theories all the time. Plus it shatters part of the cis-supremacist model of trans women, namely that we don’t actually have sex.
One of those conveniently ignored truths in many transmisogynist queer communities is that we do actually have sex. Sometimes even with cis people! DUN DUN DUN. But, really, I think it is good to talk about this stuff, because cis queers certainly do (and talk and talk and talk and talk and pat themselves on the back and talk and talk).
If you’re taking requests, that is… :)
gudbuytjane
4 Jul 09 at 12:40 am
I dunno, the part where “fuck a trans woman” butts up against ‘chasers/fetizishization kind of squicks me.
But then, I haven’t had sex for years anyway. With another person I mean.
Not because I’m trans…I was married, see.
Kynn
4 Jul 09 at 12:48 am
@kevinchi
you really think you’re in a position to be a big peacemaker and mediator bringing understanding between trans- and cis- people?
really? people are still trying to handwalk you through basic cis privilege 101, and there is nothing wrong with that, but it doesn’t really mean you aare a peacemaker, dude, given the things you have said in the last like 72 hours.
maevele
4 Jul 09 at 3:01 am
[...] enjoy the same privilege of being “non-trans.” Lisa at Questioning Transphobia wrote an excellent, fair post about this incident, subsequent episodes of which can be found at PHB and in the comments section [...]
Decentering “progressive” privilege in the blog world « Lesbian Femme-inist Revolution
4 Jul 09 at 11:35 am
The latest from Autumn Sandeen seems to be that it doesn’t matter now “who started it” (despite her taking the time to make a front-page post to call me out for starting it), and we just need to move on, and anyone who cares about Autumn deceptively making me into her whipping girl just doesn’t give a damn about Lateisha Green’s murder, Angie Zapata’s murder, the Matthew Shepard act, ENDA, Diane Schroder, or August Provost III’s murder.
Really.
I shit you not.
There honestly are no depths to which Autumn Sandeen will not go in order to throw other trans women overboard to save her own skin.
And ironically enough, Pam Spaulding says that I am the one to not be trusted.
Kynn
4 Jul 09 at 2:40 pm
@kynn
I did find the earliest mention of cisgendered in the that thread.
It was not yours and you are owed an apology from Autumn.
I don’t believe that it was deceptive on Autumn’s part, I believe it was an honest mistake.
However, an amends is due to you from Autumn.
kevinchi
4 Jul 09 at 3:44 pm
“the Aravosis thread, I mean.
Your time stamps were very convincing, by the way, but did not go far enough for my standards.
Now there is no refutation of the evidence.
kevinchi
4 Jul 09 at 3:48 pm
Autumn’s refusal to cop to “an honest mistake” shows that it is anything but honest.
The timestamps prove her wrong, but she keeps insisting it’s a “meme” that isn’t “important.” Nevermind that she took the time to dig up my LiveJournal and my twitter feed — and post those, after identifying me personally as the instigator — she didn’t spend the time needed in order to read the timestamps.
She was much too concerned, in her very long, lengthy post full of pitchforks and Bon-Bon pictures, with making sure that she painted herself as a wide-eyed innocent while demonizing her “trans peers”, all the while citing as examples of this trans-gression only (a) a cis person using the term cis, and (b) a trans person who showed up a late to the fight who didn’t actually say something objectionable.
That’s deliberate. That’s not just a typo or something. That’s Autumn Sandeen choosing, with forethought, to make me into the whipping girl for her ineptitude.
If it were a mistake? She would have apologized, wouldn’t she? Her refusal to do so shows that it was deliberate. You don’t apologize for a deliberate smear attempt; you obfuscate and that’s what her “snowball” post is all about.
Kynn
4 Jul 09 at 3:50 pm
@kynn
I saw and commented.
gudbuytjane
4 Jul 09 at 4:17 pm
Michelle
4 Jul 09 at 4:37 pm
oh for crying out loud I forgot to close my blockquote tags or something in the comment I just sent. Sorry. Going to repost and hope I do it right this time:
————
Kynn (or anyone else who sees answers to this and wants to reply) — from a functional perspective, why do you think you were chosen to serve in this role?
That is, what is it about you — as opposed to others who might have been cast in this role — what is that positioned you as most appropriate to be cast in the script as Autumn cast you?
I hope this question makes sense.
I see an attempt in the recent post to inaccurately spin this as a trivial interpersonal sort of blog drama. In contrast, I see it as a political/power dynamic playing out that includes attempts to define and control and spin away from reality.
The problem is that blogland is filled with all sorts of drama and so this becomes a culturally plausible story, a way to turn attention away from anything defined as drama and toward “the bigger picture.”
That’s where my questions are coming from. From a functional/political perspective, why were you the most appropriate one to cast in this script? Again, if that makes sense.
PS I think I likely get why Autumn used the other comment by the cis commentator. I felt that comment as really dissonant. I think that comment functionally served as a sort of deceptive caricature of how the script casts trans people who are “weaponizing” cis.
Michelle
4 Jul 09 at 4:39 pm
Who is Kim Pearson and why does she think she can tell trans women how we should fight for our rights?
Seriously, Autumn’s into cis character witnesses now?
gudbuytjane
4 Jul 09 at 5:40 pm
i commented to Autumns note on the snowball fight thing on face book and told her the truth plain and clear. And Kynn to answer the questoned posed above got picked out simply because she didn’t mince words or play nice – she was livid and blasted it from my take she said just what she thought thus providing a convenient foil for oh those meenie Trans woman – never mind battyBB michele and a half dozen ohers bending over backwards to educate ad nausuem for the learning resistent what the problems with the power dynamics are , what the word means , what privilege is .
and Autumn whom i have no personal gripe against , she is flesh and blood still cannot seem to bring herself to see this is about priviege power and a mistake on her part in which Pam and i said this too is NOT helping at all. Its about imo scapegoating , cuddling the privileged and there is no excuse for it and deflecting to snowballs is insulting and shows a real lapse of NOT GETTING IT still. People will come to her defense because they don’t like to see her under attack – Kim Pearson is the head of TYFA who did the wonderful job on the KRXQ radio show.
Jumping jesus on a pogo stick – i gather the note i responded to a face book is an actual post on the Blend – if so gotta say and with no pleasure at all : EPIC FAIL on both Autumn’s part and ultimately it rests at PAM’s feet the blog owner. And as i said somewhere for fuck sake if Autumn for some reason cannot grapple w/the power privilege dynamic PAM most certainly can and NOW NEEDS TO, each day that goes by the BLEND continues to slip into. And people might say – geeze over this a “snowball fight”
This is not a snowball fight even comparing to such is a gross insult to everyone especially us trans people’s intelligence and PAIN. jeebus. I think Autumn for her own sake ought to take a hiatus from the BLEND.
I care about her as a human being and worry that the strain may truly be harmful to her and she made a mistake a big one – and her health her well being matters. She is one of us. Most of us are very compassionate and forgiving but one has to cop to their mistakes. sheesh.
proudprogressive
4 Jul 09 at 6:42 pm
Kim Pearson went to KRXQ for their educational broadcast after the DJs advocated anti-trans child abuse and cost their station multiple sponsors.
That said, I think she’s so far out of line in implying that anyone’s anger should cost trans people a chance at civil rights. I think that was pretty immature and privileged, and shows that no matter how good an ally someone may be or think themselves to be that they’re not immune to slipping on their own privilege and fucking up.
Just remains to be seen whether she’ll bother to own her shit or just try to pile it on trans people.
Michelle, I just realized you’re the Michelle who was around here before – glad to see you commenting again. :)
Lisa Harney
4 Jul 09 at 6:51 pm
Fortunately for me, I am in a position right now where Pam Spaulding publicly connecting my birth name (Kynn Bartlett) with my new name (Caoimhe Ora Snow) on her blog probably won’t affect me too negatively.
But Pam didn’t know that; Pam didn’t ask that. Pam outed me on her high-volume blog to silence me, and she did not have to do that; she could have just shut down my Caoimhe account. She did not need to post a screenshot.
To her, defending herself and Autumn from criticism — and maintaining her “authoritay” on her blog — is more important than a trans person’s transition, life, career, and safety.
Pam didn’t know I would still be (reasonably) safe after she outed me; she didn’t know what effect if any it would have on my life. She didn’t care.
Pam’s House Blend is not just “not safe space” for trans people — it is potentially deadly to trans people. If Pam does not like you, she may out you.
These are the actions of an ally? These are people who want us to believe that PHB is an LGBT blog and not just Gl(b)?
Kynn
4 Jul 09 at 6:58 pm
@Lisa
First off, OMG sorry I typoed your name on the post I linked to cis* resources. I didn’t think it would be worth correcting on that thread.
Well, it looks like Kim is slipping up on her privilege all over. I apologized for my first snap, but she’s pretty busy tellin’ trans folks what we’re allowed to say and do, so I don’t know if she saw it.
gudbuytjane
4 Jul 09 at 7:31 pm
I don’t care about name typos.
And yeah, I noticed.
Lisa Harney
4 Jul 09 at 7:40 pm
I think from now on, whenever I see people talking about activism I don’t agree with, I’ll post:
YOU ARE WASTING TIME THAT COULD BE SPENT BUILDING THE SUPERNOVA ESCAPE ROCKET!!!
gudbuytjane
4 Jul 09 at 7:50 pm
gudbuytjane – that’s a good one. may i borrow that phrase should the need come up?
GallingGalla
4 Jul 09 at 8:03 pm
@Lisa
Thing is I don’t want to inadvertenly use cis privilege either. Right is right and wrong is wrong but still…
Maybe this falls under the guise of using cis privilege to do the right thing. I don’t know.
kevinchi
4 Jul 09 at 8:04 pm
JUst back from the blend and thank you all who were there and commmented and omfg that is really a thing to behold – the Avarosifying of the BLEND – and Kevichi actually came the closest to someone who just might get a sash from me at least. But the rest of them ..Lisa you linked what to what they really think – and the vibe was so clear – blame the trans folks..blame us , leave us behind, nothing to the contrary stating that a non inclusive bill would not cut it. THE BLEND IS DEAD TO ME. I can go to 365 gay for better coverage of news. I don’t need this shit NONE of us do. How PAM can obfuscate like this is a shame …i was not even close to fully informed as i don’t hang there much at all , never really did as to how TOXIC it is.
Thank you all who entered that lions den and educated , explained , complained and expressed what you observed and felt in both the vitriolic ways and the calm ways.
THE BLEND IS DEAD TO ME. right there with Avaviris’s blog. Back room deals will be made. I am of the mind that fighting incrementally for these bills is an excercise in futility – ground hog day – we either get our entire Demographic included in and expanded Civil Rights codes of 64 or some omnibus legislation and we begin the visualization now so that our children’s children children would see it..
And shame on Kim Pearson for jumping in there with her good intentions. She was i have a hunch feeling Autumn was frail and needed protection what she missed however was the greater issue – the misogyny and the Whipping Girl syndrome – her child happens to be an ftM fwiw so i can see how this could escape her..still no excuse for coming in and scolding people as if …..
The BLEND is off my blog roll completely now – i will goggle it if i need to see something…no more benefit of the doubt. This was/is as bad a blood letting as the debacle of 07 in my book.
proudprogressive
4 Jul 09 at 8:05 pm
LOL.
Autumn updated her snowball post to very very very very very reluctantly admit she might have made a mistake — but it’s okay because she remembered it that way! — and of course offers no apology.
(Because it was clearly deliberate.)
As for why I was specifically singled out as Autumn’s whipping girl? I have no idea; I suppose you’re going to have to ask her that. My guesses would be either (a) she didn’t like me tweeting about it on twitter, or (b) she’s got some kind of jealousy complex because I’m a real reporter and she plays one on Pam’s blog.
Kynn
4 Jul 09 at 8:20 pm
By the way, kevinchi –
I do owe you an apology, in that I thought you would never learn and would never start making progress on dealing with your cis privilege. You’ve started, and I am happy to see that.
It’s always a shame, though, when “good learning experiences” for cis people come at such a cost to trans people.
Kynn
4 Jul 09 at 8:22 pm
Well…
I’ve done all I can now.
kevinchi
4 Jul 09 at 8:56 pm
well sadly on Facebook Autumn wrote that an something something sockpuppet is basically responsible for “whipping up all this trouble for her.
i had to comment with respect and love she is one of our own after all that her wounds were self inflicted – but clearly and i said this for the FB world to see she needs to own that this is firestorm of webosphere shite is not the fault of the the sockpuppet – and its not too cool as you pointed out Kynn though FB leaves little room for comments to out a Trans person that as you say did escape PAM in her rush to obfuscate what might drive someone to continue to wage the battle against cis privilege. etc.
But seeing her blame a sock puppet for her woes was really sad. JEEBUS !
proudprogressive
4 Jul 09 at 9:04 pm
re the sock puppet concept:
not everyone who talks about that,
are who THEY claim to be, either.
the hypocrisy of some people is amazing.
I am not going out anyone, claiming to be cis who is tg…
lying liars who lie indeed.
and live in glass houses i guess.
how many people are misrepresenting, not to get heard but to misinform or worse, one wonders!
obviously controversy brings out the best in people
*sarcasm*
javier
4 Jul 09 at 9:12 pm
“to out anyone”
oops sorry
javier
4 Jul 09 at 9:14 pm
Pity the first person out there who was “weaponising” language was … Autumn. In all that.
Dw3t-Hthr
4 Jul 09 at 9:16 pm
The idea that I was acting as a “sockpuppet” while posting under my own name (granted, an alternate one from my birth name) is pretty funny. Especially since I even dropped hints in my profile there, and didn’t really make any attempt to change my writing style or anything.
Pam and her unruly gang of transphobic cis people seem to think I was “pwned” by her. Quite frankly, I’m surprised it took them THAT LONG to figure it out. I wasn’t hiding.
Now I’m actually kind of relieved that I was the whipping girl — because at least I don’t have much to lose, such as a job or a relationship or family support, compared to other trans women who Autumn could have arbitrarily chosen.
Currently, Autumn is tweeting about me:
@autumn_sandeen: @iamthewalrus451 Check link provided yourself — she ids herself with her sockpublet & real name. Pam did the research, & screen save.
This is a trans rights activist? Someone who calls my female name a “sockpuppet name” and my birth name is my “real name”? Weird.
(Kynn, for the record, is my “male” name. My full name is Kenneth Lennis Bartlett, and “Kynn” is a self-chosen shortening of “Kenneth.” However, I do prefer female pronouns, since I identify as a female trans person.)
Kynn
4 Jul 09 at 9:23 pm
I’ve been reading that thread on PHB and OMG!!
Lisa – I just want to thank you for having a place like this. I never really got the idea of “safe space”, and I guess it’s because I haven’t ever felt it. I get it now because I feel it here.
rioTgirl
4 Jul 09 at 9:33 pm
kynn,
you get what i am saying above, right?
there is alot more going on here that is anti trans then just on thing.
(i am being vague, as this is sort of uncool,
but it bugs me… .)
javier
4 Jul 09 at 9:36 pm
Yeah, I think?
For all the talk of sockpuppetry and whipping girls and snowballs and pitchforks, even that’s just a derail. Autumn said Aravosis needs to own up to his cissexism — without using those words — and cis people reacted to shut down the conversation by derailing it. As someone pointed out in threads, that’s the real issue, and nobody is talking about that now; we’re all talking about whether “cis” is mean or Autumn is mean or Kynn is mean or Pam is mean.
Kynn
4 Jul 09 at 10:02 pm
well,yes,
but i MEANT people are claiming to be cis who are trans, and also othering you(us) while hiding behind their anonymity.
(and since I think outing is for wankers,
i can’t/won’t do it,(tho others obviously will!)
but creating a “cis” identity to live as, then pissing on someone’s head is like closeted homobigot repubs voting against glbt rights.
the stench is all hypocricy.
so there is hatred,
and self hatred, on and on, which is worse, not sure…..
javier
4 Jul 09 at 10:32 pm
@Kynn
Oh, the irony is truly worthy of Sophocles.
I received a response fron Autumn, by the way.
The irony of the whole thing is this:
Pam and Autumn were correct in that the initial use of -cis on the Aravosis thread was weaponized (lol, is that a word? I love how we make up words in the internet age, it’s almost like Elizabethan England).
And the initial user of the “weaponized cis” was _____.
I think this will be straightened out tomorrow.
kevinchi
4 Jul 09 at 10:34 pm
in other words,
i can’t/won’t out them.
but some people will out YOU.
even tho (they) are hypocrits, i wouldn’t do that.
but when you eat our own,i almost feel like it.
i guess some people have codes of honour and some don’t.just wanted you to know that there is more then “cis privildge” going on here….
ps
looked up your gaelic name-
i am thinking about getting a gaelic language tape
and learning it. your name is the northern irish gaelic pronunciation, as you may know.
https://ww5.pimsleurapproach.com/search3/learn-irish.asp?sid=001CTseoIrishA_ggl&Network=Content&kw=irish%20gaelic%20language&ad=4509609095&SiteTarget=www.irishdictionary.ie&s_kwcid=ContentNetwork|4509609095&gclid=CLyGpoHjvZsCFSBN5QodcyvZ_w
sorry re long link but that’s it.lol
take care.
javier
4 Jul 09 at 10:45 pm
apropos of nothing:
Tá m’árthach foluaineach lán d’eascainn
or “My hovercraft is full of eels”
if that’s not a metaphor for life i don’t know what is
javier
4 Jul 09 at 11:01 pm
@javier
I’ll admit that there may be a privilege issue that I have there. In my mind, A. was the one who did the “calling out” and directly accused Kynn. But it may still be on the board.
But since the “weaponizing” was done by a cis person (I think!) I will concede that there maybe an apology forthcoming from there too.
Yes, I knew my name was Gaelic. I have a Latin name (well, that Latin name is really derived from Greek) and a French name too.
kevinchi
4 Jul 09 at 11:14 pm
I would STILL like to see some clarity from those proposing the idea that “cis” can be “weaponized” to explain how we are to distinguish between calling someone out on their privilege, and weaponized usage.
Because, if “weaponized” = SLUR, that’s pretty easy — slurs are used by the majority against the oppressed, not the other way around. Slurs are oppression and the trauma thereof wrapped up in a nice neat word.
“Cis” will NEVER be a slur in the same way that “tranny” is.
Sabrina Star
4 Jul 09 at 11:21 pm
Far as I can tell, the “weaponizing” of the word came about when it was used to justify attacking the trans participants and their allies.
Dw3t-Hthr
4 Jul 09 at 11:25 pm
ah, crap,this thread is out of it’s written order…
hi kevinchi,how are you?
i had been talking re kynn’s gaelic name,
tho kevin is indeed irish.
i don’t think you are acting privildged.
we are crossing messages, i guess.
thanks for coming here to talk, that’s cool of you by the way.
sorry if i seemed to be addressing you and making 0 sense, lol.
i was trying to say as low key as possible that there are tg people(person) posing as cis putting kynn down, but am trying not to be “outing”.
like repubs being closeted, that is worse then cis people, straight, putting us down, “eating their own”,
etc.
i feel weird even bringing this up, but someone is posing as cis who is not and insulting kynn, one more ugly angle, you know? but that is all i wanted to say for fear of outing.that is never ok.
but my point is that hypocricy is rampant.
also,you seem really well read, do you mind if i ask what do you do?
j
javier
4 Jul 09 at 11:32 pm
As a note, many of us know exactly who they are, and much of their history.
Let them have their points — and keep this in mind:
I do not call them transgender. I don’t really call many of them transsexual.
I do not include them in most of my activism, and I make that fairly clear more than once in a while.
I do like some of them. Then again, I like some people who have told me that given an opportunity to end my life horribly without potential consequence, they would do so.
I allow them to identify however they want. And when they say “i need to stop including them”, I pointedly state that I do not include them.
In fact, *at their request*, I pointedly disavow them.
So when I speak of gender variant, gender congruent, trans, cis, etc etc I am not talking about them.
Ever.
If I talk about them, I use the language they have developed. I might be crude and rude towards them because the language they use is often demeaning of those I *do* represent or myself, but, ultimately, if you consider them trans, then you *must* include them, since theyy are, within our own community, and oppressed group and subject to the very tone arguments we loathe so much.
Yes, they are rude, offensive, enraging, etc. They insult us and use transphobic language against us.
Treat them as you would someone who is not trans, not cis, not inter. Think of them as one of two other terms that aren’t out there yet, and remember that in doing so, they will provide any evidence of their own deceit really easily.
Dyssonance
4 Jul 09 at 11:39 pm
Oh, and I am unimaginably furious at the utter reduction of trans experience as of value or importance contained in Autumn’s recent posting, above and beyond the avoidance tactic that it represents.
She is on my shit list. I will not be civil nor nice going forward.
Dyssonance
4 Jul 09 at 11:40 pm
Caoimhe (pronounced KWEE-vah or KEE-va) is an Irish Gaelic given name derived from the Gaelic caomh, meaning beautiful, gentle or precious. It is from the same root as the Irish name Kevin.
Pronunciation varies depending on the area of Ireland in which it is used. As of 2005[update], it was ranked 17th among female births in Ireland.[1]
karma?
javier
4 Jul 09 at 11:41 pm
It’s possible to use anything as an insult, but… seriously. I can’t remember the comic but he was talking about racial slurs, and he said “And what are you going to call me? I’m a white man. Honkey? Whitey? Come on, you think that’s going to hurt?”
And he has a point. There is no history of cisgender or cissexual being used to oppress anyone, as a word. It has no weight for the kind of offense that even transsexual can carry.
Lisa Harney
4 Jul 09 at 11:42 pm
@javier
a data entry clerk but I got my degree in classics with an almost major in English (1 class short) and an almost minor in philosophy (again 1 class short).
Yes, that sounds like a very ugly angle and i hope that I didn’t bust anyone out myself but…
kevinchi
4 Jul 09 at 11:44 pm
dyss, yes good point.
still bugs me in the same way as someone doing in in gov. and being closeted himself,tho.
seems worse.
it is obviously SELF hatred.
but i would NEVER reveal what i know, because i wouldn’t want it to happen to me.
not everyone thinks that way,obviously!
people care about themselves, but it’s harder to be empathic to others.
that’s why my particular hovercraft is full of eels….
javier
4 Jul 09 at 11:48 pm
kevinchi,
did you see the above karmic moment,lol?
and can i ask you what writers you like?
j
javier
4 Jul 09 at 11:51 pm
you and kynn are on a karmic spin i think lol
javier
4 Jul 09 at 11:52 pm
@dyssonance
passing, huh? Whomever that is.
kevinchi
4 Jul 09 at 11:52 pm
@Dyssonance
Autumn is a self-serving asshole. I think we can all feel fine with that, just because we’re trans doesn’t mean we have to be nice to her. She sold us out, she continues to sell us out, and every slight she gets to her character is well deserved.
She and Pam outed a trans woman without her approval. As far as I am concerned, that puts them in tranny-alert territory, and gives up any expectation they can have for good faith discussions or to be treated as anything but a threat to trans women.
gudbuytjane
5 Jul 09 at 12:00 am
dyss, the last thing i wanted to say:
i’m not presently talking re “operative history” etc. i meant making up a complete history in said glb community and posing as part of it as a cis person, and then dissing tg people while lying re said history.
specifically. it’s something that i found out but am protecting because i’m not a shithead, i won’t out.
but it’s pretty galling.
but i feel constrained in this conversation by the whole IDEA of “outing” which is so ugly , too.
i have been,like, hinting my point because outing is so ugly.but i am pissed.
oh well.
that’s all.
oh well, some good may come of the whole debacle,who knows.
javier
5 Jul 09 at 12:06 am
@GallingGalla
Of course! My snark is all open source… :)
gudbuytjane
5 Jul 09 at 12:07 am
@Kevinchi
Sorry, I am dealing with exceptional rage right now and not doing too well in terms of catching meaning as most of my effort is focused on avoiding being a shithead to pretty much anyone.
May I ask what you mean by the comment “passing, huh?”
@gudbuytjane
AS is a fucking piece of sh– er, I mean, yes, a self serving individual without care or concern for others is accurate in my present estimation.
I do not approve of what Kynn did (despite liking her style in doing so, and being hypocritical in saying so), but what was done (and, initially, it was not Pam or AS – they merely reacted to a CWGM who did the outing, wallowing in his privilege) was literally inexcusable and I will, in the future, put whatever energy I feel I can spare towards the purpose of rendering her commentary visible for the excrement it is using every bit of linguisitc talent at my disposal.
Dyssonance
5 Jul 09 at 12:11 am
a person posing as cis who is actually trans, you mean…granted passing is much easier to do online?
And as AS posted the update I…well didnt think that was…uh very nice either but…
Did the cis understand that this wasn’t a mere “outing”? I know that not undertsanding that is a part of privilege but…
kevinchi
5 Jul 09 at 12:26 am
@javier Ah, ok. So its not one of the usual suspects, but, nevertheless, the core point I was making still stands.
Truth be told, if there wasn’t a physical and financial danger to such, I would seriously consider outing, since stealth is, to my mind, essentially the Mattachine assimilationist ideal that kept all of us oppressed by actively cooperating with our opponents.
However, my view is not particularly popular and my expression of it is met with serious disapproval.
(no offense to any who are stealth — I understand its value)
Dyssonance
5 Jul 09 at 12:27 am
I think the option to go stealth is valuable. The mandate to go stealth is oppressive.
Lisa Harney
5 Jul 09 at 12:29 am
@kevinchi yes, there are several who do that sort of thing.
Sidenote: I am, personally, extremely unfond of the concept of “passing”. I have partivular reasons for being very adamantly opposed to its use as part of the jargon lexicon within the community that arise from an intersection of race from whence the concept is loaned.
So please excuse me — it appears me perception was colored by that.
@lisa oh, I do to. Indeed, so important was it as an option to me when I started, that I nearly didn’t start.
Back in November, I had the option of doing so. The allure of it was extremely strong.
IT is, however, a selfish structure, and as an activist of late, I gain more value from open numbers than I do hidden ones.
Dyssonance
5 Jul 09 at 12:36 am
But at the same time, it may be necessary for personal safety or or even peace of mind.
At the same time, the mandate to go stealth rendered trans people largely invisible as people (rather than as caricatures), so yeah.
And the problem in why people go stealth isn’t the people, it’s that society treats trans people like garbage.
Lisa Harney
5 Jul 09 at 12:41 am
kevinchi:
i meant a specific person with an online identity very complete and fleshed out who is tg, calling themself cis, and then hate speeching on tg people. like a closeted repub who hates gay men in public but uses them in private.
seems especially evil.
ps did you see this i thought it was coincidental:
Caoimhe (pronounced KWEE-vah or KEE-va) is an Irish Gaelic given name derived from the Gaelic caomh, meaning beautiful, gentle or precious. It is from the same root as the Irish name Kevin.
Pronunciation varies depending on the area of Ireland in which it is used. As of 2005[update], it was ranked 17th among female births in Ireland.
javier
5 Jul 09 at 12:44 am
Yeah — its a no win situation right now, and it serves to make advocacy a constant battle.
I have adopted a position that is is a good thing, but that being pen, regardless of the cost and price, is a better thing.
Dyssonance
5 Jul 09 at 12:45 am
Moi?
kevinchi
5 Jul 09 at 12:47 am
I chose a female version of Kevin, in part, because if my younger sister had been a boy, her name would have been Kevin.
(If I’d been given a girl name at birth, I would have gotten what became my little sister’s name, and so that is obviously not going to work!)
Kynn
5 Jul 09 at 12:48 am
dyss, i know where you are coming from but i almost got sick even saying these things here tonight because outing is so deeply hostile that i feel weird even now, go figure, respect is pretty deeply ingrained in me for other people’s rights, because of empathy,and re my own tg i guess.
but no,NOT any usual suspects, actually a pretty clever scam, all in all.
(if not so purely f***ed up…)
javier
5 Jul 09 at 12:49 am
kevinchi and kynn:
karma i tell ya!
javier
5 Jul 09 at 12:51 am
OK, I have to remember that!
kevinchi
5 Jul 09 at 12:55 am
i mean you guys started out wrangling little knowing you had this in common. now you are cool w/ each other.must be meaningful….
javier
5 Jul 09 at 12:57 am
dyss are you still around?
not to get nosy but did you know stassa? she was so incredibly funny. she has locked her blog now i wondered if something bad went down-i really enjoyed reading her comments, etc. she had me on the floor.
i hope she didn’t have a bad online flaming or something.i liked her.
javier
5 Jul 09 at 1:07 am
I don’t recognize the name, javier.
So I might know her, lol, but not know it.
Dyssonance
5 Jul 09 at 1:10 am
Stassa used to come around here, but we had a disagreement over whether it’s appropriate to blame trans people for the medicalization and regulation of trans-related medical care, or whether it was the medical professionals who built the gates.
While I still believe that she was wrong and engaging in victim-blaming by insisting that American trans people were actively responsible for the inclusion of the “GID/Gender Dysphoria” diagnosis in the DSM as well as the extensive medical gate keeping that has been arrayed against us, I do think that my response was over the line as well.
And if she happens across this, I apologize for that.
Lisa Harney
5 Jul 09 at 1:11 am
ok, I am off to bed before I tell someone else to go fuck themselves directly.
Good night all.
Dyssonance
5 Jul 09 at 1:11 am
hi lisa, i never saw that particular post.
i liked her because of her sense of humour…
she is greek and possibly has a european take on things, i guess.
her blog is locked down now.
also she commented alot here and there.
but maybe she is busy in school.
well, take care and good night.
ps this site is an incomparably great resourse
javier
5 Jul 09 at 1:21 am
I don’t think I could even find the post without a fine-tooth comb.
But yeah, I agree that she has a good sense of humor.
Lisa Harney
5 Jul 09 at 1:38 am
actually, i was just reading it.(google)
yes, there is some definate back and forth
there to say the very least.wow.
she is very intellegent…
but can be very verbally agressive.
and i can see how you might come to verbal blows. you guys are not exactly on the same page to say the least.
that i had not seen- just humour.
hmmm.
well,
goodnight
javier
5 Jul 09 at 1:48 am
@Dyssonance: “IT is, however, a selfish structure, and as an activist of late, I gain more value from open numbers than I do hidden ones.”
I just wrote something to that effect, about the value of visibility (which G/L folk seem to have gotten good at, T/B folk rather less so) — kind of a rehashing of my old Usenet posts but with twenty years more experience — yesterday. Still trying to decide whetherto repost it to DW or just link to the copy at PHB from DW.
d'glenn
5 Jul 09 at 3:31 am
I just read dglenn’s post and it made me realize the solution to this whole mess is that we need to come up with a word for cis people that *is* a clear insult.
Estrobutch
5 Jul 09 at 9:30 am
re: stassa (who’s a friend of mine)
she had an sustained, intense interaction with some of the same creeps that dyssonance likes to play tit-for-tat with, and i think at that point she’d sort of had it. she was never an advocate of any kind, just a person who had a perspective she needed to put out there, and once it was done – and received pretty poorly by who sort of didn’t get the point – i think she just decided that was it.
like a lot of us for whom this kind of thing really isn’t a profession (or even an avocation) but more of a part of transition itself, she turned back toward things that actually matter in her real life, rather than allow herself to become frustrated and repetitious.
i do miss her presence in this domain, though. her outrage was unique, and bracing.
cigfran
5 Jul 09 at 1:43 pm
Well, yes, I liked her. We just had that particular disagreement which got out of hand.
Lisa Harney
5 Jul 09 at 3:24 pm
i have to laugh.
cathryn, who seems not to like the “gay” community is posting on pam’s glb website again(after being banned by AUTUMN-)i guess “the enemy of my enemy” is not my enemy.
….hopefully “enemy” won’t be seen as a weaponized word.
(oh wait it is)
i guess that makes”papa-ratzi” a term of endearment.
…don’t eat the magic mushooms alice
i do’t think we’re in kansas any more….
javier
5 Jul 09 at 5:29 pm
hey lisa do i win free srs for being the 500th comment
tm@(“not a guarantee”)
(sorry… had to say it… please don’t hit me….lol)
javier
5 Jul 09 at 5:37 pm
You can have a commemorative tea cozy!
Lisa Harney
5 Jul 09 at 5:38 pm
ok, can you describe it?
it does sound appealing………..
(& i want to see if if clashes with my decor……)
javier
5 Jul 09 at 7:38 pm
@gudbuytjane:
Seriously, Autumn’s into cis character witnesses now?
Well, as i learned at a very early age from watching Heathers, after you’ve backstabbed all your friends you have to make new ones. When you’re desperate to make new friends, you might make some less-than-stellar choices.
Apologies if i have inadvertently “weaponized” any part of this conversation.
algormortis
6 Jul 09 at 7:20 am
Well, I tried asking Pam nicely and instead she apparently wore out her “bold” and “underline” keys to say, paraphrased, “look, I don’t fucking care what effect it has on trans people, YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVE, YOU DISRESPECTFUL DECEPTIVE PERSON.”
Ah, well.
Here’s another of those timelines of events which Pam and Autumn hate so much.
Kynn
6 Jul 09 at 7:46 am
Yeah, but you’re not banned, you just can’t post comments!
As gudbuytjane put it the other day as we were walking down the street, “It’s fucking newspeak.”
I suggest you just remove some of the words from her reply, Kynn. Basically, Pam just doesn’t care about trans people.
algormortis
6 Jul 09 at 7:52 am
Still can’t comment there, even from work – so it’s not just my IP. Sent an email – no reply. I do understand that there are probably no few emails being sent, so I’m not really expecting anything super soon and I’m not taking a 24(ish) turn around on a email as a personal snub (yet).
I would like to mention that with all the hullabaloo going on – I frakkin’ amazed that people are STILL asking what “Cis” means in the middle of threads where it has been beat to death. I’m to the point that if I did have posting abilities I’d be tempted to ask “what is gay?” or “What is a Homophobe?” “Are they really AFRAID?” *grumble to self*
rioTgirl
6 Jul 09 at 12:36 pm
BTW.. what’s a girl gotta do to get a tea cozy? And.. I wonder if cafe Press could make a QT cozy.. the mind wanders after lunch….
rioTgirl
6 Jul 09 at 12:38 pm
Once you’ve declared “cis” to be “weaponized” terminology, you basically give the cis bigots free rein to condemn anyone who uses it, in any context — including the way Autumn did.
Karma’s sting is pretty wicked.
Kynn
6 Jul 09 at 12:43 pm
I can’t post there either anymore and I don’t know why; no warnings, no explanation, nothing. Its not my IP either because my partner can post fine.
alang
6 Jul 09 at 3:01 pm
we know why that is, alang. they assumed that i was trans because i used the pronoun “we” without realizing it, and then when i apologized for going off on Kim for making that assumption (not because it’s somehow insulting, but because it’s the same damn thing as when people assume i’m black if i argue against racism), they then assumed that i was cis, and became very… very… polite. and suggested i post a diary (which i admit i found confusing).
and at the same time, they were busy booting all those identified trans people who dared argue with them.
nope, not a bunch of ‘phobes over at PHB, not at all :-p
bugland
6 Jul 09 at 4:26 pm
Hey, Kevinchi, if you’re still able to use Pam’s House Blend (because you’re not a trans person or supportive of trans people, apparently), can you ask Pam why she scrubbed a bunch of comments in order to protect Autumn’s friend Kim Pearson?
Actually, you might not want to do that — you may lose all posting rights, as alang, rioTgirl, and several others have found.
There’s a price for standing up against cissexism. The cis people (and whatever token trans person they can drag along) will make you pay that price, relentlessly.
Kynn
6 Jul 09 at 4:32 pm
The scrubbing was done at Kim’s request.
She suddenly realized what she’d gotten herself into and asked they be stripped and her account at PHB erased.
dyssonance
6 Jul 09 at 6:10 pm
interestingly enough — I did not ask for my comments to be scrubbed, and yet an entire sequence was erased.
dyssonance
6 Jul 09 at 6:18 pm
some of mine are gone also.
I really try to be even tempered and try to see as many perspectives as I can. I used to mod a REALLY busy heated political MB and was fairly well respected for being fair and honest in my modding. I’m not one to pop off without a good explanation.
That said
This is really pissing me off.
rioTgirl
6 Jul 09 at 6:26 pm
I emailed them and just asked why I couldn’t post and suddenly hey, i can post again! And I got a email reply saying that if I had just joined in less than 3 days, that there was a 3 day wait period before one could post. Only I joined in june and had already made several comments. hmmmm.
alang
6 Jul 09 at 6:47 pm
Dyss, I have a copy of said page.
I wonder why comments are being deleted.
Lisa Harney
6 Jul 09 at 6:48 pm
…so much for the “free speech experiment”. Whoops.
z
6 Jul 09 at 7:00 pm
In following up, several of my comments in three sequences (that is, all my replies in a chain) were deleted.
The one you saw, Lisa, was part of a large chain surrounding Brandi Parker, and all of her posts int he chain were removed as well.
I suspect that since I was banned “officially” for having said I was cuter than her (which was not civil), and that I used her posts later to categorically establish that she is indeed a bigot (thus creating a potential for Autumn having defended a bigot) that it would be better if they simply vanished.
I haven’t had a chance to do anything today and read much (perhaps a total of 20 minutes online today), so I don’t know why this is happening, but its just furthering the sum total of mistakes.
If I could guess, it would be that they were working on setting things up for “civility day”, lol.
But, as my bf says, it appears the secret moderator is Mr Smith. Which is a reference to Winston Smith, the lead character in 1984.
dyssonance
6 Jul 09 at 7:16 pm
ok, in checking it out, it was kim’s removal affecting me.
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showComment.do?commentId=151432
I know the software — Pam’s not lying, that is indeed how it works.
dyssonance
6 Jul 09 at 7:21 pm
… you mean O’Brien — Winston was the “hero” of the novel.
z
6 Jul 09 at 7:22 pm
ah — to be frank, I don’t know what I mean — he’s the one who knows it, lol. I haven’t read any Orwell since 1982, and I’m glad of it. (I’ve often suggested a corollary to Godwin’s law regarding Orwell).
And I’ll go with yours :D
dyssonance
6 Jul 09 at 7:29 pm
hmm may have to reread the book again then
i did read it several years before 1984
was his response, lol
dyssonance
6 Jul 09 at 7:32 pm
Oh, Pam. Whatever.
Kim Pearson requested that her account be deleted from the Blend this AM (that is different from being banned; the account remains dormant). When an account is deleted, Soapblox’s software then deletes all of the user’s parent comments and nukes the nested child comments made by anyone else; that’s an unfortunate limitation of the software. When a user is banned, the comments are preserved. I confirmed Kim’s request with her this AM.
BTW, skeptics don’t have to believe me about the software platform issue, Paul Preston at Soapblox.net will confirm this.
What a trainwreck.
gudbuytjane
6 Jul 09 at 7:56 pm
I I I can’t seem to look away.
And note the silence on trans related issues. How, um, quaint.
dyssonance
6 Jul 09 at 7:58 pm
I think the all comments deleted when account is deleted is true, and I think it’s come up before.
It’s kind of regressive, technically, that it deletes all responses to the deleted comments, though. I don’t know how wordpress handles it, but LJ just deletes the comment while leaving everything else intact, and if you delete the account, the comments remain.
Lisa Harney
6 Jul 09 at 8:03 pm
Pam is right about the software – it’s pretty common on MB software that an account deletion will remove all traces of a user. Now that I look at the comments of mine hat are missing, they were all responding to Kim’s need for cookies and demands for “constructive comments”.
rioTgirl
6 Jul 09 at 8:08 pm
Yeah.
Also, there might be reasons to design it that way vs. designing it, say, like LJ.
Could see levels of deletion, and making deletion available to users (although the way it is on LJ can allow for extra drama, but also for temporarily taking your stuff offline to avoid it).
Lisa Harney
6 Jul 09 at 8:40 pm
From a design perspective, they were probably just thinking
“If the member is removed, then all the account links in the comments won’t work and broken links are bad. So we’ll remove those comments.
Well now these comments are pointing to another comment as the parent that doesn’t exist anymore. That’s likely to cause an error. So we’ll remove those as well”
For cleanliness, it makes sense. For practicality, it’s drama waiting to happen (already happening).
That being said, Pam likely already knew that the system works that way.
cere
6 Jul 09 at 8:48 pm
I’m pretty sure the software is designed that way because often when people delete their accounts on a site, they ask for all traces of their presence be erased as well. This would just make an admin’s job easier to not have to manually delete content – or if someone’s account was deleted for SPAM or trolling you can wipe out all the stupid in one action.
From a board admin’s perspective it is probably really useful 90% of the time it’s used and only rarely (like now) would it even be noticed.
rioTgirl
6 Jul 09 at 8:52 pm
@Lisa @rioTgirl
Oh, I don’t doubt that is a known issue with the software, I just don’t believe that her account wasn’t deleted for that very reason.
Why does Kim Pearson get to decide what stays and goes when PHB won’t take down information about a trans woman long after any point Pam might have wanted to make was made?
I’m not going to let this “technical difficulties” derail keep from the real point: Kim Pearson is the transphobic and cis-privileged things she said. She could have retracted or apologized, but she instead tried to have it erased.
gudbuytjane
6 Jul 09 at 9:15 pm
Err, typo…
Kim Pearson and the transphobic and cis-privileged things she said.
gudbuytjane
6 Jul 09 at 9:17 pm
I asked Spaulding if she would remove my account(s) if I asked, which would include her post outing me. She replied with this:
Kynn
6 Jul 09 at 9:23 pm
And of course the commission of transphobic/cissexist comments by a leading cis activist for trans rights? That will disappear from the Internet and there won’t be any sort of update outlining what happened. They just silently disappear, without PDFs made.
Because Kim is a friend of Autumn, and I am not. (In fact, I’m inexplicably Autumn’s whipping girl for reasons that have never been explained.)
Kynn
6 Jul 09 at 9:25 pm
Spaulding has redacted most of the information from the screenshot, after I chewed her out in email. No apology for her actions, of course, and hey, wasn’t Pam herself the one stating that once you put something on the Internet, you can’t un-put it?
Kynn
6 Jul 09 at 9:28 pm
Here’s what she bitterly told me when she redacted the information:
Thing is, I actually changed my Dreamwidth profile like yesterday or something. It now says:
What was that again about a “sad straw man”?
Kynn
6 Jul 09 at 9:31 pm
Oh, crap, didn’t close a tag.
Kynn
6 Jul 09 at 9:31 pm
Re: Kynn’s identifying info snafu
I think Pam has been watching too much Bill O’Reilly… gaze too long into the abyss, and all that…
Claire
6 Jul 09 at 10:12 pm
Well, I was going to say anyone, but I shall now amend that to anyone who hasn’t pissed them off, is supposedly able to request deletion.
Now that I’m not only awake, but very well fed (lobster and steak. I cooked. Me and another trans woman. It was good. How can a man not like steak?), I can rise to the evening’s labors.
I was going to write this privately to Lisa, but I’ve thought better of that and so simply put this out in the open.
I am also a friend of Kim’s. Indeed, the day of the 4th, I was at a wonderful little celebration put on by Michael Brown (a transman) and his wife (a ciswoman) locally here.
Kim was there. As were several others who I think really highly of because they are all sharp cookies, lol.
Kim, however, had been sucked into this by the constant phone calls, texts, tweets, and other assorted stuff that were being hurled at her.
In short, she was being manipulated by someone who, in my *professional* (not personal) opinion, is in need of serious therapy in order to work on various aspects of passive aggressive behavior and co-dependency disorder.
I could, if pressed, delineate examples of such. They are quite available.
Given that Kim had only met this person at the beginning of June, I think that I can say, hopefully without fear of pissing her off, that she was not truly friends with them — at least not to the degree of friendship that I am with her.
I will say that Kim was fucked from the get go the moment she made a posting and it was under Said Individuals account. That created an impression of complicity at a point where emotional context is more relevant to this point that I am making.
I know, firsthand, as a result, that the request for deletion was made, and that the reasoning behind it was one of separation from and disavowal with said person.
Who, I should note, in light of my opening statement, has not actually fulfilled the intended goal, and, therefore, has not fully erased all of Kim’s posts.
I am not defending Kim’s words or her actions, I am merely stating what I do know. Given that my actions thus far are more related to calling the unnamed apostate individual various foul and unpleasant words under my breath, it would be wrong of me to do so within my own moral and ethical system.
And as a psychopath, my own moral and ethical system holds more weight with me than any other, lol.
dyssonance
6 Jul 09 at 10:45 pm
Kynn, I could be wrong, but I perceive it not so much as who is friends with who, but as the clear operation of power dynamics. Your actions are defined as this horrible crime, while the practice of transphobic/cissexist comments by a cis person claiming to be an ally to trans people is met with cooperation and accommodation.
I mention this because I see so much effort over there to spin this as a non-political trivial interpersonal drama rather than the operation of a deeply political transphobic/cissexist system played out in these interactions.
I suspect that the friendship patterns on display are likely another related manifestation of the overarching power dynamics, and less of a direct cause of the actions unfolding now … if that makes any sense.
Michelle
6 Jul 09 at 11:10 pm
dyssonance, my observation of Kim from my limited interactions with her in the now-deleted threads is that she displayed the “trans ally” version of the White Savior role. From what you perceive and know, was that a product of the manipulation you describe?
Michelle
6 Jul 09 at 11:17 pm
@michelle
yes. I realize this could be construed as an agency argument, but in taking my own feelings outof the situation and applying it strictly as a function of my professional efforts, I do see it as such.
That particular role doesn’t work well for her, or her son. I’m fairly close to both (decidedly closer than AS), and that’s not how she operates normally.
dyssonance
6 Jul 09 at 11:20 pm
@lisa — can you forward me a copy of it? I may need it in the near future…. lol
dyssonance
6 Jul 09 at 11:23 pm
Yeah, that’s true. Ultimately what it comes down to is that cis privilege protects itself; that’s part of how privilege works, of any kind.
Privilege is set up so that people who have it are not able to see the concerns of those who do not as “valid,” unless they put a lot of work into it.
I am really thankful for the cis people here and elsewhere who really do make an effort.
Kynn
6 Jul 09 at 11:54 pm
Given that the PHB’s software removes not only the remarks of the person requesting the deletion, but the remarks of anyone who replied to that person, or to anyone replying to those, I think the only responsible thing for Pam to do in such a circumstance — rather than erase what might have been good, valid points made in good faith by other people because one individual decided to flounce off — is to simply decline to delete that individual’s account.
Kynn
6 Jul 09 at 11:57 pm
i hope this isn’t an incredibly obvious question, but as i haven’t a whole lot of experience dealing with the LGBT community (or any other community for that matter), i’m totally at a loss here.
is the current situation at PHB the result of cis privilege or of blatant transphobia? by this i mean that while the general atmosphere might be one of privilege, where most people might not know why they act the way they do, the folks “in charge” are being actively hostile (i am speaking of Pam here, to the extent that i’ve noticed more of what she’s personally said, but it may be other people too that i’m not aware of). algormortis said several posts back that Pam just doesn’t care about trans people. my impression is that she cares, all right, in the same way that John Avarosis seems to care- they really, really resent the fact that trans people are part of “their movement”. i realize that the word “deceptive” has been used in various contexts in this thread, but is it actually possible that someone who purports to be aware of trans issues would use that word as Pam did without knowing how it would sound? did it sound as bad to anyone else as it did to me?
i’ve been telling myself that there is, or ought to be, a difference between cisprivilege and outright transphobia. i’ve always thought privilege as being a matter of ignorance rather malice, except to the extent that society can be malicious. have i misunderstood the nature of privilege, or is the LGB”T” mainstream as transphobic as it seems right now, and if it is, how are trans people supposed to be part of that mainstream?
i’m sorry if this is off topic, offensive or just mind-numbingly stupid, but it’s been bugging me.
bugland
7 Jul 09 at 12:24 am
I would guess that it’s probably a mix of both, though probably slightly more cis privilege — it is hard to tell the motives of some people, but the effect is undoubtedly the same.
z
7 Jul 09 at 1:05 am
Changed to show 100 comments per page.
I’m not happy with it defaulting to newest, but no option to change that.
Bugland,
I personally don’t like to speculate on what’s going on in someone’s mind when they say and do transphobic things (or cis privileged things). Generally, it shifts the conversations onto things you can only guess and can’t ever prove, and it really lets people off the hook. I prefer to focus on what they said or did instead of what they might be thinking.
Lisa Harney
7 Jul 09 at 1:16 am
that’s a good point, Lisa
z
7 Jul 09 at 1:26 am
I would add to that statement of Lisa’s that you should never go outside a person’s post unless it is to another post in the same thread.
Focus entirely on what that that person is saying in that post with attention to the context of what the two of you are discussing and the overall context of the particular thread itself.
Tactically, this places you in control of the dialog, and allows you to give your full attention to the particular poster’s words.
One of the most common mistakes is to try and figure out what the poster “really” means. This is always an error, since you do not have the power to read the posters mind, and if you step outside of the bounds of the actual words the poster typed, you are immediately making assumptions.
When I get into a serious argument or exchange with someone, I pay very careful attention to strictly what they *say* — the words they fling at me. I do not pay much attention to what I think they are doing by flinging those words at me, or what sort of motivation they may have in general, because everything I need to be told is generally going to be present in the statement.
This then allows me to use their own words against them, which they cannot readily deny, and engage in active listening practices that allow me to either eviscerate them or to educate them more effectively.
I also follow a few basic rules that are really helpful, in my expereince:
1 – Always be open and utterly, ruthlessly honest (that is, never go in with ulterior motives, Fr one, that screws them up, since they will suspect it, and for another it allows you to avoid the usual ugliness that comes from being less than above board)
2 – Use examples from your own life to demonstrate points, never someone else’s. This creates an empathic relationship, and forces them to stop seeing you as an impersonal object.
3 – Ask questions if you do not understand something. This is the most powerful tool, and the manner of asking questions is somewhat important. Don’t ask rhetorical questions. Ever. They create presumptions, and you want to stay away from anything not established thus far. Don’t ask entrapping questions (“are you gay all the time, or just when it suits you?” or “on a scale of 1 to 10, how stupid are you?”). Ask genuine *why* questions. Why is the sort of thing that keeps them unbalanced. “Why did you say this?” or “Why have you said this part here?”
4 – Offer ways out. This one is downright evil if you are very good, but always important, since often someone will agree with you or have lost, but they are in a situation where they have lost face. You can offer them a way out that *you* select, thus forcing them into a corner a little more, or you can offer them freedom (which, at some point, you have to do) by suggesting some other way of looking at things that is close to their original viewpoint, but perhaps not quite where you want them to be.
5 – Be Friendly. Friendly is not the same as nice, but it does mean doing things like asking how they are, commenting on how they *might* be feeling (best done with a personal example), referencing personal events in their lives you are aware of that they hold as important to some degree. “Hi, Halfwit, how’s the kid?” This again keeps the off balance, as suddenly you are interested in them as people, and usually they will talk about their particulars openly and more relaxed. Often, you can spot inconsistencies in their life and their statements as a result, thus gaining greater leverage.
This set of rules will generally give you more of an upper hand, both in terms of the readers outside the immediate discussion, and in terms of allowing you to get your point across, regardless of what your intent may be.
Key active listening skills include rephrasing (When you said X, did you mean this?), structural parsing, and repeating (You said x, I said y).
If I could make one other suggestion, it is never attack people for piss poor typing skills or grammar. If you can’t figure out what they are saying, ask, rather than attack.
IT a passive tool, but allows for a cleaner and more effective approach.
Please don’t violate Godwin’s law, either. I would extend it to all of world war two.
dyssonance
7 Jul 09 at 5:37 am
why don’t flame wars ever wind up with someone being compared to Kaiser Wilhelm?
world war one never gets any love.
cigfran
7 Jul 09 at 5:56 am
@Lisa
I prefer to focus on what they said or did instead of what they might be thinking.
I agree, which is why I made a point of fixing my typo to “and the things she said.” I try to keep it about actions and words, but there is a point I think when you’re allowed to cut to the shorthand of a label. After saying a lot of racist things I’m going to call someone a racist, and not worry about framing it so they are only critiqued on points.
@dyssonance
I agree those are all valuable discussion points for a civil debate. I don’t think that is the only way to highlight the issues you are addressing.
I’m not trying to reach the majority of posters at PHB, and I haven’t tried for a long time. I don’t think the Fritzes or Pollyannas or any of the people vehemently shouting down the idea of cis* privilege are going to have a sudden paradigm shift, at least not on that thread.
The audience I think of when I am engaging people online in situations like PHB’s trainwreck aren’t the posters, but those reading. I will give the posters enough rope, then I will write about it. I have had quite a few people email me during the Pamsplosion; they see the dynamics playing out as they are, and they have become supporters of the position of trans women because of that.
You can disagree and say you don’t like my approach, but then we start down that slippery slope to tone arguments… :) Seriously, though, I think it takes all sorts of approaches, and I am glad to have your voice on that thread (as I am glad to have Lisa’s, and was glad to have Kynn’s).
gudbuytjane
7 Jul 09 at 7:47 am
I have been following this charlie foxtrot for a while and I don’t feel it is my place to comment one way or the other.
That said I’m going to be a hypocrite and while I really do not mean to offend I just want to get this out of the way, for Kim Pearson to start off her comments by including “Shut up and own up to your shit.” and then ending her involvement by having everything she said with that account deleted does not leave me with a high opinion of her in regards to that specific action.
Narcoleptic Kitty
7 Jul 09 at 8:46 am
Privilege or protection?
Between this situation and a very intense struggle in my day to day life related to violence and institutionally-granted power, I’m starting to question whether the term “privilege” functions to possibly obscure what is actually going on in the power dynamics. I’m posting about it here, here, but am not sure it will be of use, so apologies if it is functionally or otherwise OT.
It seems to me that the word privilege is used to sort of describe protection from a very violent environment. Lists about privilege seem to be about what kinds of violence/harm won’t happen to those who have privilege.
What I observe going on with “privilege” is that all of this takes place live inside an entity (environment) that is extremely violent as part of its essence. It offers certain deals for some inside it. It offers to provide certain protections from its own violence. In return it requires those who accept the deal to be intimate with it in certain ways and to act as its agents in doing violence/harm to those who are not under its protection on that particular axis.
Experiencing violence and harm at the hands of this entity is the default in what we’re in, because this is an intrinsically violent environment, at its core violent. Protection from violence/harm is deviation from that default — something has to be done for that protection to exist and maintain. Having some people/groups protected in some ways seems necessary because the thing needs agents to do its work.
But still, the protection is what requires something, while the violence is the default that happens if nothing is done.
So the question from this angle is: “What enables those who are protected to be and stay protected from the violence?”
I feel like in practice sometimes, the use of privilege to describe this protection makes those who are protected the norm or default somehow. This removes the necessity to see the underlying dynamics of these deals (because as used, privilege is something that just is, and the focus goes to privileged people’s ignorance of the privilege for example).
Also in practice the use of privilege as descriptor seems to leave no way to really look at the deep deep insanity that comes with a deal where the very thing that does the violence comes along to protect some people from its own violence if they agree to its terms.
From this angle, the dynamic isn’t so much ignorance as it is something deeper and more twisted (which of course won’t be something people will admit, but can still become visible when you are experiencing harm at their hands). Which I personally have found useful to understand in experiencing violence/harm at the hands of someone who has made one of these deals in a layer of violence where I do not even have the choice to make such a deal.
And PS I agree with Lisa and dyssonance that focusing on what may be going on inside someone’s mind is not a good thing to do. Better to focus on the actions.
Michelle
7 Jul 09 at 12:33 pm
@Michelle: I think you’re definitely on to something, given that civilization has, relies on, and is founded on, immense amounts of violence, and the further up various hierarchies you go, the more you’re shielded from it (and the more “tragic” it is if you’re exposed). I also think that your model would go into the ways that people actively, yet subconsciously, maintain their position in the hierarchy – Cis people keep their behavior legible in the binary, men perform masculinity, straight people go to great efforts to not seem queer, etc. It works for gender/sex/sexuality. If we generalize further, I think it falls down a bit for race – I don’t get privilege/protection because I’m white, I’m white because I get privilege/protection. But that gets into larger scale stuff about colonization and imperialism, and there have been societies that shielded themselves a bit (but not much) through “westernization”. Of course, I may not see the things white people do to maintain their whiteness, because I’m white, even as much as I can see how my ancestors became white.
It definitely works for maintaining class standing, though.
anarchafemme
7 Jul 09 at 1:07 pm
e-mailed to me by my 81 yr old grama:
Anger management
Husband says: When I get mad at you,
you never fight back. How do you control your anger?
Wife says: I clean the toilet…
Husband says: How does that help?
Wife says: I use your Toothbrush…….
(ps
rio Tgirl
if you want you can have my teacosy when it gets here…..)
j
javier
7 Jul 09 at 5:22 pm
[...] on June 29, Lisa at Questioning Transphobia responded to all this by posting Cis is hostile terminology? Really? In it she reminded people: Cis is a neutral term applied to people who aren’t trans. [...]
The Thang Blog » Are we really doing this again? (OR: The Great Trans Blogging Shakeup of 2009, pt 2)
7 Jul 09 at 10:30 pm
anarchafemme — whatever you are talking about in your comment (7/7/09 at 1:07pm) is deeply different from what I tried to write about that you responded to. I think that’s my fault/responsibility. I already knew before posting that for me, these topics are always a translation from vivid sense-perception into words that can very easily be changed into shapes and textures that are alien to me.
Michelle
7 Jul 09 at 10:56 pm
Holy whoa. I pop in and out of PHB, but I hadn’t seen this prat parade. How terrible to just shut down people who are being perfectly reasonable. :/
Privilege means not having to deal with the people who challenge your elevated, unearned, and largely unchecked status. Someone can hold it up to your face, but you’re free to turn your head and look away from the unpleasant truth. It’s sad that so many of these discussions turn into arguments. It’s so important to try to see things from another person’s point of view and remember that everyone deserves respect and validation. Some people are more concerned with being right/winning than actually getting along with their fellow human.
Tangential– anarchafemme, I’m not following your statement:
“I don’t get privilege/protection because I’m white, I’m white because I get privilege/protection.”
Can you please explain what you mean?
Samia
10 Jul 09 at 5:59 pm
@Samia: it stems from how every oppression functions a little differently – who is viewed as white by society has been expanded over time, and the way race works is that while stuff like gender, dis/ability are also social constructs, race is one defined by arbitrarily selected and constantly shifting traits (in a different way than other social constructs). People get defined as white because they are privileged in terms of race rather than people first being defined as white and then getting privilege from it (i.e., the ethnicities I come from and my appearance are privileged, thus they are white).
anarchafemme
10 Jul 09 at 9:23 pm
I think I understand where you’re coming from, but I have some reservations about the wording. I didn’t understand what you meant because people receive race privilege based on others’ evaluation of their physical features. So in a way, isn’t it true that people get privilege by virtue of being white (that is, presenting physically as a member of one of the ‘white’ ethnicities)? In real life, do people stop and ask if you’re privileged before referring to you as white? I promise I’m trying not to be dense. :/
Samia
12 Jul 09 at 7:17 am
@Samia: but physical features aren’t race (and are only a part of racial privilege). Basically, I’m receiving privilege because of my features, cultural traits, how I speak, etc., and then because I’m treated in a racially privileged way, I’m read as white.
It’s a little more apparent to me because I’m of Italian descent, and so I’m definitely white, but there are people out there who look a lot like me and other Italians who are not viewed as white (the lines in the Mediterrenean are pretty arbitrary). The ways they aren’t privileged are due to their ethnic background, cultural cues, etc., and thus they’re viewed as not white.
Race is different than other social constructs in that, unlike gender, whiteness doesn’t come from a sense of internal identity at all, just the arbitrary set of appearance, cultural, and ethnic cues. I kind of see it as I identify with the ethnicities I come from, because of those ethnicities, I’m privileged in society, and thus, I’m white.
It has a lot to do with the history of racism/white supremacy in that as ethnic groups have gotten more accepted, they’ve been redefined as white (most recent being Italians and Ashkenazi Jews) – white isn’t a list of traits, it’s more a list of “people from these backgrounds who look this way get privilege and we call them white”; it’s continually changed itself as an effort to maintain both white supremacy and to be used as a tool to keep society divided in the US, in ways that “man” hasn’t changed.
anarchafemme
12 Jul 09 at 11:59 am
Thank you anarchafemme for answering and Samia for asking – This little off shoot is very elucidating and when i really learn something on a blog like this its such a gift. This stuff is important if not critical to identifying the sources and roots/intersections slight variations of the mechanisms of power and oppression in its plethora of layed and ubiquitous manifestations.
proudprogressive
12 Jul 09 at 4:53 pm
Thank you anarchafemme for answering and Samia for asking – This little off shoot is very elucidating and when i really learn something on a blog like this its such a gift. This stuff is important if not critical to identifying the sources and roots/intersections slight variations of the mechanisms of power and oppression in its plethora of layers and ubiquitous manifestations.
proudprogressive
12 Jul 09 at 4:54 pm
anarchafemme, thank you for your reply. I think I’m having issues because people who benefit from white privilege must be read as white in day to day life in order to receive it. The way you present in real life makes it possible for you to experience white privilege, no? I’m not sure we’re disagreeing here, but your wording (that privilege confers the status of whiteness and not the other way around) only seems correct in a larger societal and political sense. Society has “decided” that a certain privileged status will be conferred upon the group of people we call “white,” yes. But individual people will read you as white first, then confer privilege accordingly. I feel it’s important to remember this, that’s all.
I feel like sometimes people make white privilege into this theoretical thing that doesn’t actually take place everyday in many ways large and small. I do apologize if I’m coming off as nitpicking.
Samia
12 Jul 09 at 9:38 pm
[...] A while ago, after reading on Questioning Transphobia about something that happened on Pam’s House Blend, I wrote a whole, lengthy post trying to say what TransGriot says so succinctly here: Cisgender is [...]
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